Straight, hairpin, straight, hairpin. Twiddly bit and back around again for another lap.
It was Korea last and it’s India next: the scenery changes but the tracks don’t.
Does the Buddh International Circuit, scene of the first ever Indian Grand Prix this weekend, offer anything to distinguish itself on F1’s increasingly homogeneous calendar?
Last week Sebastian Vettel raised the prospect of India’s circuit being one of the quickest in F1.
Red Bull’s simulator indicated an average lap speed of 235kph, suggesting a lap time of around 1’18. But tyre manufacturer Pirelli’s predictions are rather more conservative, estimating a 1’27 lap with an average speed of around 210kph.
Based on Pirelli’s estimates, here’s how the Buddh International Circuit compares with the other 19 circuits on the original 2011 calendar:
Lap length
Lap time
Indian Grand Prix lap time based on estimate by Pirelli
Average speed
Indian Grand Prix average speed based on estimate by Pirelli
Maximum speed
Indian Grand Prix maximum speed based on estimate by Pirelli
Number of corners
On the face of it the Buddh International Circuit looks entirely typical of modern F1 tracks: roughly five kilometres in length with the usual combination of long straights leading into slow hairpins, plus some medium-speed corners.
Its layout has much in common with other recent additions to the calendar such as Yas Marina, Korea, Istanbul and Bahrain. This is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Without wishing to judge the track before it’s even held a race, it’s impossible to ignore the conspicuous lack of imagination in modern F1 track design – whether you choose to blame ubiquitous designer Hermann Tilke, or the safety and commercial restrictions he is constrained by.
We see far too much of circuits that “have a bit of everything” and, consequently, have nothing that marks themselves out from other new tracks. As the graphs above make clear, it’s the classic old venues such as Monza, Spa and Monaco that provide the extremes on an otherwise increasingly homogeneous calendar.
But this will matter little if the Buddh International Circuit provides exciting race. We’ll find out if it can on Sunday.
2011 Indian Grand Prix
- Vettel voted Driver of the Weekend for third time
- Rate the race result: 2011 Indian Grand Prix
- Massa’s crash and more fans’ videos from the Indian Grand Prix
- 2011 Indian Grand Prix: complete race weekend review
- Herbert explains Massa’s penalty: “He knew where Hamilton was”
- Vote for your Indian GP driver of the weekend
- Red Bull: Vettel never troubled for 11th win
- McLaren: Another race to forget for Hamilton
- Ferrari: Massa runs afoul of kerbs – and Hamilton
- Mercedes: Drivers’ points gap shrinks as Rosberg loses out
Chalky (@chalky)
24th October 2011, 12:18
You haven’t mentioned elevation changes?
If you watch the RedBull videos of the circuit, they make a statement about the elevation changes and how it changes the circuit. Looking at it in 2-D it does look quite boring.
PJTierney (@)
24th October 2011, 12:20
Have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkpp_r7GQRM
Bear in mind it’s in Time Trial mode (where the track is perfect and all simulation options are off) and the fact that the game’s a few seconds faster than reality anyways, so the laptime won’t equate well to this weekend, but the elevation change is there :)
John H (@john-h)
24th October 2011, 13:34
It looks like a beautifully flowing track if that’s anything to go by. A few really challenging braking zones up and downhill.
I do however agree with Keith’s general point about Tilke tracks trying to include everything and therefore not standing out from the crowd… I kind of ‘design by committee’ effect if you will. However, this track doesn’t seem to have a point and squirt silly chicane, so I think it might actually stand out more than the graphs seem to indicate.
Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
24th October 2011, 16:47
Looks promising, as you say it seems to flow well. Reminds me of Sepang – even the twiddly bits out the back look fast, and there are one or two corners that sneak up on you – but with undulations more like the Nurburgring.
leadfoot (@leadfoot)
24th October 2011, 21:01
That was the first thing that popped into my head as well. If it had to be like other modern tracks you could get worse than being similar to Sepang. I am a little worried that DRS passes will be all you see however I’ll reserve judgement until I see the race.
The Edge (@the-edge)
24th October 2011, 18:24
love the graphics…not sure they’ve got the view out of the Mclarens wing mirrors quite right though….I’m sure Lewis said they vibrate a little more than that on the straights
perhaps its something they can work on for F12012
Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
24th October 2011, 19:21
After watching the video I think it will be a good track. It definitely has a good flow to it, which is highly important and the elevation changes are nice. The blind, uphill right hander at the beginning of the circuit is fantastic, so is the double apex one near the end!!
Heskin Radiophonic (@heskin-radiophonic)
27th October 2011, 10:13
That blind, uphill right hander is a rip off of the Spielbergring in Austria.
UKFan (@)
24th October 2011, 22:51
My F12011 experience leads me to believe that 1:15 is 10-15 seconds away from reality at least. F12011 tends to exagerate straight line speeds.
James Robertson (@mclarenboy0310)
25th October 2011, 0:05
After watching that I think that average lap times will be about 1:25ish.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
24th October 2011, 12:28
Indeed. It’s almost constantly going up and down.
BasCB (@bascb)
24th October 2011, 13:00
From the pictures of the track that were posted last week, it really does have interesting terrain below it. But it really seems the rest is pretty much standart Tilke, from the “turn 8-lookalike” he came to fancy lately, to the straights looking like Korea in reverse a bit.
I certainly hope the track will be enough of a challenge for drivers to make them really take to it and the hundreds of thousends of fans making it a great festival of motorsport, if they really turn up as expected from ticket sales.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
24th October 2011, 13:27
I think the circuit may have been created to encourage drivers to pressue one another. The four long straights are going to need minimal downforce, which is going to hurt on the second half of the circuit. Between the constant undulations, the weaving corners and the dirty surface off-line, it’s going to be tricky to string together fast laps consistently. And when you’ve got another driver bearing down on you, it’s going to be that much harder.
Fixy (@)
24th October 2011, 14:43
Maybe India can become the best track of the Tilkedromes, and maybe we should remove the other tracks rather than this?
ScuderiaVincero (@scuderiavincero)
24th October 2011, 15:28
@Fixy I say Valencia goes first, despite being one of Bernie’s favorites :)
Fixy (@)
24th October 2011, 15:38
@scuderiavincero we know Valencia is on the calendar only because it brings good money and many fans, not because of the exciting races.
Of course we have many Tilkedromes, but maybe we should remove the most boring ones in favour of some better ones (which I hope Buddh is). It would be even better to have unique tracks such as Monza, Monte-Carlo and Spa, but that’s unlikely to happen.
ScuderiaVincero (@scuderiavincero)
24th October 2011, 15:53
@Fixy I’m sure the fans there would enjoy it more if the races were better, wouldn’t you agree? A question though, which of the Tilkedromes would you have removed from the calendar? (please don’t say Sepang, please don’t say Sepang, please don’t say Sepang, I’m begging you, please don’t say Sepang) :P
I’m with you on Buddh being one of the better tracks Hermann Tilke has produced. Even the Austin track looks promising as well (from my point of view, anyway).
Fixy (@)
24th October 2011, 17:47
@scuderiavincero I don’t know! I’m just saying Valencia is horrible, and for the races there to be entertaining there should be a Spa circuit somewhere ;)
I’m not even going to say Buddh is nice, but I hope so as it looks so! Hopefully by the end of the week we will know.
ScuderiaVincero (@scuderiavincero)
24th October 2011, 23:48
@Fixy Well I’m not about to disagree with you on Valencia :) Here’s to a good race in India! :)
Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
24th October 2011, 19:35
It definitely looks nice. I am relieved to see the elevation changes, not enough tracks focus on that.
I’d like to see future track designs have a greater emphasis on elevation changes, and high speed corners, they are what truly make a race awesome to watch. I am glad to see India has a little of both!
Raj
24th October 2011, 14:42
With all undulations, it seems reasonable circuit..for me the long straight is spoilsport. It just takes away sheen from circuit. Second sector will be quite challenging & many drivers might be caught out in that. It would be pretty diff to do consistent sector times in that as margin for error is very minimal. Probably it seems tilke might have so many challenges.. it seems BIC owners wanted it in as compact space as possible considering they are going to develop it as commercial housing estate, so probably i.e reason it is not as wide as many new circuits.
In the end it is the people who visit circuit makes it special rather than just design of circuit. For me they are only two standout tracks Spa & Suzuka. Rest are not that great tracks but popular/exists for some reasons. Monza, Monaco, Silverstone, Interlagos (fans atmosphere makes it special), Singapore (night race.. just think how it feels to watch it in day time..) , abu dhabi, Baharain, china, valencia (money matters) etc.
So hopefully india & indians embrace formula 1.
PJTierney (@)
24th October 2011, 12:18
In F1 2011 the faster drivers can take a lap at 1.21.
Given that the game is 3-4 seconds faster than reality I expect 1.24 to be a rough laptime estimate.
BasCB (@bascb)
24th October 2011, 13:06
Right in the middle between the estimates made by Pirelli and Red Bull then @pjtierney!
Dave (@davea86)
24th October 2011, 14:19
I wonder how much of that is Red Bull playing games with the other teams. 10 seconds difference in predictions over an 80ish second lap is pretty big. I doubt they’d be giving away any info to the other teams for free. I suppose until the cars actually run on the track in anger it’s all academic.
Architrion (@architrion)
24th October 2011, 12:19
Holy mother… it makes Hungaroring look like the most exciting track on earth!!!!
I’d rather like more 70 procession laps around Imola. At last, I’d have 70 sights of the place where Senna died… I’m really tired of those Tilkedromes, laking of a single piece of creativity….
PJTierney (@)
24th October 2011, 12:22
It’s funny actually. I was playing Forza Motorsport 4 online yesterday with some Americans and Hockenheim came up. Although these guys had no real knowledge of F1 they said right away that the final few corners (the stadium section) was great but the rest of the track (which Tilke redesigned) was “like a kid took out a piece of paper and scrawled a crayon across it”. :)
Architrion (@architrion)
24th October 2011, 12:28
And I can’t forget the classic track, do you remember? As fast as Monza, with two chicanes in the middle of both straights to slow down a bit the cars, running between trees and a piece of an inverse parabolic in the opposite side of the stadium…. That was fantastic to watch, even better than Monza because cars struggle at the stadium with low downforce setups, and you could catch the real driver managing the weight of the car and the grip….
Then came Tilke and it was all gone…
bosyber (@bosyber)
24th October 2011, 12:46
Well, to pre-empt @prisoner-monkeys, it was not Tilke’s choice to cut that glorious bit of track, it was money, and perceived safety with the trees keeping the track wet and the high speeds. I do still think that it should have been better to create something more exciting that we got, but the shortening and available ground to work with were a given for Tilke.
PJTierney (@)
24th October 2011, 12:54
There was also the security issue, as literally anybody could walk into the woods and come out on the racetrack, like one disgruntled former Mercedes employee did in (I think) 2001.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
24th October 2011, 13:20
Speaking of the surrounding woods, the circuit owners did not actually own any of it, so they could not build on it.
BasCB (@bascb)
24th October 2011, 13:12
Funny you mention those Americans @pjtierney, when they will get a bit of a remake of that fiddley bit in the new Austin track as well (the worst part of that track, in my opinion)!
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
24th October 2011, 12:27
That’s a bid morbid. I know I’m not looking forward to next year’s Malaysian Grand Prix, because it means I’ll see the place Marco Simoncelli died about fifty or sixty times. Tamburello is not a tourist attraction – and it has little resemblance today too its 1994 self.
Architrion (@architrion)
24th October 2011, 12:32
Come on, I named Imola just to show a place where a single processional race is much more significant that a Tilkodromic festival around a meaningless track. Place where Senna died is there to be sanctified, nothing less.
It’s as morbid as Spa or Monza, full of places where some racer died. I. e., Von Trips, or Ronnie Peterson at Monza entering the parabolica….
BasCB (@bascb)
24th October 2011, 13:18
@architrion, I do think I get what you mean about rather seeing whatever laps on a classic track than a “fesitval” on the Tilkedromes.
But the mention of 94 Imola was not really the best chosen, especially with recent deaths of Simoncelli and Wheldon.
Not to mention, another factor against the Tilkedromes is actually they more often than not do not give us any festival of racing at all, but rather a look at a skyline, hotel, pitbuilding, grandstand, etc. with a racetrack running around it that shows itself to be less ideal for overtaking than planned.
But Imola really would not be my first choice for a track to bring back, as it really is too dangerous without the changes and not much good with the changes. Better to keep it in memory for the good races then let that memory be tainted.
John Bergqvist (@)
31st January 2012, 10:15
Ratzenberger died at that track too you know…
Brandz (@brandz)
24th October 2011, 12:25
if you’d drove the track on f1 2011 before writing this (which i guess you didn’t) you’d see it has loads to offer! it’s a brilliant track with lots of different types of corners, i love it personally.
On the contrary
24th October 2011, 15:03
There are scandal lovers posing as F1 fans and then there are bloggers posing as journalists. Both have license to shoot from the hip. Why will they let go of that privilege.
We have biases against new venues and we will do everything to bad mouth them every time we speak.
Ned Flanders (@ned-flanders)
24th October 2011, 12:27
First of all, I hate the term ‘cookie cutter’!
I would like to ressurect the old saying that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. By that I mean that all the above charts and stats make the track seem pretty rubbish, but in reality it actually looks a decent circuit with a fair bit of gradient and some challenging corners.
However, I do take the point, and I would love if Tilke for once thought outside the box. Can’t he ever design a circuit with a crossover? One with only a handful of corners and a short lap like the A1 Ring? One with a straight that ends in a fast corner rather than a slow hairpin? As restrictive as the FIA regulations may be, I’m sure there is still plenty of room for innovation
bosyber (@bosyber)
24th October 2011, 12:54
I have seen quite a few very interesting cookie cutter shapes @ned-flanders :)
From the video someone posted above of a lap on F1 2011, the track looks pretty nice, elevation changes etc. which shows that with those same elements, and a good patch of land, you can get far in creating a nice to drive track, if you put in the effort.
But like you I still would have liked to see an extra bit of effort put in to think on how to be more inventive within the regulations.
John H (@john-h)
24th October 2011, 13:39
I like the idea of a bonus cookie with my Suzuka cutter.
ajokay (@)
24th October 2011, 14:32
@ned-flanders I agree with you, there needs to be variety. I loved the A1-Ring, the races there were interesting, and it was always great fun to race on Grand Prix 4. Lots of elevation but so few corners and a short lap, it really was something different.
I still refuse to judge a track before it’s been raced on, so I’ll reserve judgement for a week’s time, but on paper it does look to be very formulaic.
At least we still have modern tracks that break the mold. Barber Motorsport Park in the US (Where IndyCar race – an entertaining, winding, undulating and narrow track) and Potrero de los Funes in Argentina (Where the GT1 cars will race in a few weeks, up and down winding mountain roads followed by a fast blast round a lake) to name a couple.
Joey-Poey (@joey-poey)
24th October 2011, 15:00
Barber really is a wild ride from what I’ve driven in iRacing. I love the layout! But I will go with what a lot of people say and attest to the difficulty it has in passing opportunities. As awesome as it would be to see F1 cars driving on it, I fear the races would be pretty dull.
ajokay (@)
24th October 2011, 16:01
@Joey-Poey yeah, if I ever go back to iRacing and spend extra money on it, Barber is what I would buy first.
matt90 (@matt90)
24th October 2011, 16:14
@ned-flanders
A cookie cutter wouldn’t work properly if it had a crossover anyway… So perhaps a cross-over circuit is the answer to less generic tracks.
I seriously agree though, something with a really long or really short (preferable for spectators) lap length and some more inspired layouts would be great, although I still think India, although generic at first glance, will be promising and that Austin may well be the same.
matt90 (@matt90)
24th October 2011, 16:31
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=cookie+cutter+tilke&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=wSCnBMTNHfy-FM:&imgrefurl=http://www.sportscardigest.com/formula-1-us-grand-prix-track-revealed/&docid=fHOsJpFdVhwWFM&imgurl=http://www.sportscardigest.com/wp-content/uploads/F1-USGP-Basic-Track-Layout-with-Elevation.jpg&w=800&h=537&ei=QYKlTuDSOYTX8gOws9jqBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=189&vpy=320&dur=542&hovh=140&hovw=196&tx=123&ty=120&sig=111404202231557491931&page=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=196&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0
Also, these images do actually look like cookie cutters…
I hope that somewhere, somebody actually makes a set of Tilke cookie cutters.
John H (@john-h)
24th October 2011, 17:16
Keith take note. Those bad boys would fund f1fanatic for years to come. Think of the manufacturing effiency of all those constant radii corners!
matt90 (@matt90)
24th October 2011, 17:55
I am officially changing my dissertation so I have an excuse to manufacture these myself.
US_Peter (@us_peter)
25th October 2011, 7:33
@john-h @matt90 I’ll buy a set from whomever makes them! Sounds like a hit product for the holiday season!
Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
25th October 2011, 17:52
The cookies will be just the thing to go with an F1Fanatic mug of coffee, when you’ve just got up at stupid o’clock to watch a race on one of these tracks…
reddevilandy10
24th October 2011, 12:29
There are those circuits that completely have to to be there: Silverstone, Interlagos, Spa, Monza, Monte Carlo, Montreal, Suzuka and perhaps Melbourne… but the other tracks are just nothing special. Yeah, Hangaroring is a challenge in its own right too… but these are the only tracks left with a real history. I cried the day I heard Tilke was to butcher the old Hockenheim. It was one of the worst moments in my motorsport fanhood.
I just hope this track has something different… elevation changes is probably the most promising aspect.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
24th October 2011, 12:34
The old Hockenheim was unsafe and unfeasible, and given its shape, there was very little that could be done when it had to be rebuilt.
It was also very over-rated. As Martin Brundle said during last year’s race, it was just plain boring.
Rammstein (@rammstein123)
24th October 2011, 12:38
Brundle says a lot of weird stuff.
David-A (@david-a)
24th October 2011, 12:55
Last year’s race was plain boring. The old Hockenheim provided some variety on the calendar due to its high speed nature. Now, it’s not terrible, but it’s like any other track.
gwenouille (@gwenouille)
24th October 2011, 13:35
I find it way too short to begin with…
Jake (@jleigh)
24th October 2011, 14:42
speaking of Interlagos, 21 corners?? really?
lubhz (@lubhz)
24th October 2011, 17:11
@Jake I think it is 15 corners, http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-information/going-to-a-race/autodromo-jose-carlos-pace-carlos-pace-interlagos-circuit-information/ according to Weber and the video :-), something might be wrong with the bar chart data.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
24th October 2011, 17:44
@jake The figures for Yas Marina and Interlagos were switched – they’ve been changed now.
nomi
24th October 2011, 12:34
Monaco is all about it’s setting, nothing more.
Aussie Rod
24th October 2011, 12:47
You’re wrong.
Casino Square. Swimming Pool.
Nuff said :)
David-A (@david-a)
24th October 2011, 12:52
Monaco’s setting is that of the most challenging, unforgiving circuit on the calendar.
nomi
24th October 2011, 12:58
Really how?
David-A (@david-a)
24th October 2011, 13:21
You need it explained to you? I’m not sure if I can take you seriously, but here’s the opinions of five former Monaco winners:
“It’s always a strange contrast going from a circuit like Barcelona, which is fast, open and flowing, then arriving a few days later at Monaco – which is the slowest, tightest and toughest track on the calendar.” – Jenson Button
“Monaco is a unique race and one that is challenging, slightly chaotic and a bit mad, for the drivers and all the teams.” – Jarno Trulli
“It’s remarkable to drive an F1 car around Monaco, it’s a completely unique track and a unique challenge for the driver. You have to push as hard as on a normal race track, but the smallest mistake can bring a big penalty.” – Sebastian Vettel
“It’s clearly a demanding street circuit, which requires incredible concentration and composure for the drivers throughout the weekend” – Mark Webber
“I love Monaco, it’s a race I remember watching when I was a kid and it’s a place that really showcases Formula One at its very best: racing flat-out against around the toughest and greatest circuit in the world.” – Lewis Hamilton
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/5/12075.html
nomi
24th October 2011, 13:27
Suzuka is still the drivers NO.1 favourite track to drive on though.
David-A (@david-a)
24th October 2011, 13:29
“Favourite” and challenging = 2 different things.
nomi
24th October 2011, 13:32
Oh i forgot that Suzuka is also the most challenging, even drivers will admit no other circuit punishes mistakes like Suzuka.
It’s no secret, teams and drivers rate Suzuka to be the greatest track on the F1 calendar.
nomi
24th October 2011, 13:40
Actually
nomi
24th October 2011, 13:42
drivers rate it their favourite because it is so challenging, they like tracks to challenge them and Suzuka does it very well.
David-A (@david-a)
24th October 2011, 13:46
Actually, Suzuka is often cited as a “driver track” like Monaco and Spa. Sure, it is one of the driver favourites, if not the favourite of the drivers.
But as I cited above, and as the style of the circuit clearly dictates, Monaco is even more punishing. A far cry from being “all about its setting, nothing more”.
Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey)
24th October 2011, 15:58
I’m on @David-A ‘s side with this one. Monaco’s a great challenge, has more history and tradition than quite a few historic circuits put together and it forces the teams and drivers out of their comfort zones. I love it.
matt90 (@matt90)
24th October 2011, 16:20
‘even drivers will admit no other circuit punishes mistakes like Suzuka.’
I don’t see how this can be in any way true if you’re bearing in mind Monaco, a race where a mistake will almost certainly mean a crash, which will almost certainly mean retirement. In Suzuka the speed is higher, but there is run-off, and it is wider and less bumpy.
nomi
24th October 2011, 23:42
Well it’s all good to have personal views but drivers and teams certainly know what Suzuka is about.They’re the ones driving on it not us.
As Fernando and Martin have recently stated again what everyone team/drivers know, Suzuka is the greatest track on the F1 calendar.
Even if Suzuka was alot more bumpy it wouldn’t make it greater and the run-off areas are there for safety because you can generate so much speed drivers need it.
nomi
25th October 2011, 0:13
As for comfort zones, Suzuka separates the men from the boys.
matt90 (@matt90)
25th October 2011, 1:27
I’m not saying whether Suzuka or Monaco is ‘greater,’ I’m saying that Monaco is more unforgiving because it has walls lining the track if for no other reason. If you go off at Suzuka, you might be able to continue racing, if you ‘go off’ at Monaco, you crash out. Therefore Monaco punishes mistakes more. Suzuka may well be a better circuit in people’s opinion, but that Monaco punishes mistakes more is fact. Although I agree that which one is most challenging is at least debatable.
nomi
25th October 2011, 3:06
This is not people’s opinion as i have said twice.
It is the fact that teams/drivers rate and love Suzuka to be the greatest track on the F1 calendar, they say it themself.
They are the ones driving on it, not us.
nomi
25th October 2011, 3:21
Drivers “rate” circuits if they are challenging so go figure!
David-A (@david-a)
26th October 2011, 18:03
And as I only need to do once, I have verified my claims by quoting the opinions of various F1 drivers to prove that Monaco is rated as a significant challenge. You have not done the same. What I did is prove that Monaco is about more than a glamorous “setting” as you implied.
David-A (@david-a)
26th October 2011, 18:04
However, Suzuka is still a challenging circuit in its own right.
Mike (@mike)
24th October 2011, 13:07
I have played F1 games ever since I was a kid.
There is not one track I enjoy over Monaco.
SimBri (@f1addict)
24th October 2011, 15:18
Really? I hate Monaco in F1 2010/11, but I love the actual race. It might be that I’m not very good, although I like to think that I just can’t spare the time to master it. I always crash out deliberately! I can do ok on all the others without driver aids but even with them all on I’m just not competitive there.
BasCB (@bascb)
24th October 2011, 13:26
Sure, in Monaco the setting is very important. But in my view, the most important is for the drivers to be challenged to get it exactly right, close to the barriers to press out a stunning lap, without crashing. And doing that for 270 km!
That makes it a real challenge for the drivers.
On the contrary
24th October 2011, 15:06
The holy grail for all F1 fans the Rascasse corner :)
spankythewondermonkey (@spankythewondermonkey)
24th October 2011, 12:55
is the circuit being slagged off because it’s a tilke? i think it looks quite interesting, with the ‘twiddly’ section looking like it could be quick and flowing.
i’m not a fan of bookending straights with hairpins, however the corner after the 1.2k straight is fairly open, with the next straight leading into what looks like a fairly fast corner, leading into a technical section. the corner marked 2 on the image looks like it’ll punish mistakes with its double apex.
get rid of the straights and you end up with a single racing line with very few overtaking opportunities.
i may be proven wrong, but to me, it looks like it has potential.
i suppose we could always just go for an oval as per indycar? shame there’s no emoticon for sarcasm ;-)
electrolite (@electrolite)
24th October 2011, 22:43
I think you found it, I’ve always considered it the sarcasm smiley!
King Six (@kingsix)
24th October 2011, 13:01
I think playing the track on F1 2011 gives a better impression than soulless numbers and graphs. I’m not sure why you decided to write off Red Bull Racing’s impression of the circuit and then hold Pirelli’s as gospel, merely because it suits the article?
It seems like a good circuit, and it’s F1 first new proper circuit since Turkey. The rest have been half baked Marinas, Street Circuits, and crap like that. Korea is a good circuit, but the rest. Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi…they’re terrible and run on gimmicks like Night/Twilight racing and hotels. And now with this new Jersey Shore track, another street circuit, F1 should appreciate that F1 is still trying to go to new actual racing circuits.
SimBri (@f1addict)
24th October 2011, 15:25
Not sure we can draw too many conclusions from F1 2011 about what it will be like as a race – I quite like Valencia (esp. the last sector) in the game, but am desperately hoping it’ll be one of the races being shown on Sky. I’m sure though that India will be better than Valencia. It’s such a shame that there are great circuits not being used for F1 or with question marks over their future when that seems one of the safest fixtures on the calendar. Hate it, hate it, hate it [stamping feet].
verstappen (@verstappen)
24th October 2011, 13:08
Since RedBull have clinched a championship again, so their simulator shouldn’t be total rubbish and Pirelli’s always a bit on the conservative side, I think the lap times will be around 1:22.
On the circuit, I don’t know. Let’s watch it.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
24th October 2011, 13:21
The problem is a constant effort to make the track good for overtaking, instead of designing a good challenging circuit.
None of the classic circuits in the calendar have been designed that way. A circuit full of straights and harpins is boring for fans and it surely is very boring for the drivers.
John H (@john-h)
25th October 2011, 11:58
Overtaking is the new black unfortunately. Once the majority realise that great races do not involve loads upon loads of overtaking (say in about 5 years or so), we can be rid of DRS and start designing tracks that actually challenge the drivers more.
Drivers hardly ever make mistakes and retire these days because the circuits are so forgiving. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for run off areas in dangerous places, but the wall of champions shows you can have a punishable corner that is also relatively safe.
electrolite (@electrolite)
24th October 2011, 13:23
It would be unhealthy for Tilke to continue to design every F1 circuit. However, that’s not to say that he is responsible for large run offs and a lack of exciting corners – those are just the rules.
We can perhaps blame him for this though;
And although India follows this suit, I do think it’s a more enjoyable track than Korea, Bahrain, certainly more than Valencia, Abu Dhabu and Singapore. It’s twisty parts, unlike all of the above, are fast, flowing and relentless and like I mentioned in another thread it feels European and more akin the Nurburgring or Hungary even.
Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey)
24th October 2011, 16:12
@Electrolite My biggest issue with Tilke is that he designs corners that are too long. Sepang, Shanghai, Sakhir, Yeongam, Yas Marina. They all have these long corners with either increasing or decreasing radii that serve only to string out the field and enchance the impact of dirty-air.
Think of a circuit like Spa or Melbourne where there are long straights followed by ‘short corners’. You arrive at the corner, brake, turn in and you’re almost immediately onto another straight. You’re not spending 2-3 seconds waiting for the corner to end to finally put the power down. This helps to make a track feel much more flowing. That’s where I think Tilke’s tracks fall down for me. Does that even make sense?
electrolite (@electrolite)
24th October 2011, 22:37
It does :) However in some instances, this rewards good driving/pace and therefore bringing the car in front closer – like Istanbul, and maybe with India although obviously we’ll have to wait and see about that.
With Bahrain they need to experiment with other versions of the track, or at least, at all costs, avoid the 2010 layout which was truly dire! With the new Silverstone they managed to create long and short corners with differing apexes, yet it seems to flow nicely and feel far from any of the other modern track designs.
Another characteristic of his tracks I’ve just thought of is just how unnatural some of the turns feel. If you take Spa, Suzuka or Silverstone you’re not just driving the corners of the track, but the scenery and atmosphere around you, with passion, athleticism. With a lot of the Tilkedromes you’re more or less ‘navigating’, or measuring the car from turn to turn without reward.
Sorry that nearly got way too deep ;) But you get what I’m saying.
electrolite (@electrolite)
24th October 2011, 22:50
(@Magnificent Geoffrey)
nomi
24th October 2011, 13:44
So are there any stats on the amount of over taking per race(each circuit).
electrolite (@electrolite)
24th October 2011, 13:57
If they were they’d be pretty irrelevant. This year DRS zones are different for each track – sometimes they’ve just gifted drivers overtakes, and other times it hasn’t worked. For previous years though, sure.
Mike (@mike)
24th October 2011, 14:01
I think we must savor todays F1 while it lasts, it is only a matter of time until tracks like Silverstone, Interlagos and Albert Park get moved aside for ultra modern Tilkedromes.
Soon they will be just memories.
AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner)
25th October 2011, 13:32
@Mike I doubt it! I don’t think FOM are that stupid! Besides, Silverstone has around 15-16 years left on their deal and Monaco signed a 10 year deal earlier this year.
There’s no reason why FOM would ditch a track for another track other than money. We’ve had 1 ‘Tilkedrome’ fail already in the shape of Istanbul Park and there aren’t that many looking too convincing either.
Ritesh (@rits)
24th October 2011, 14:03
Lets just hang on for 3 more days, shall we? All judgements made even before a lap time has been set are mere speculation. No amount of numbers can tell the story like an actual timed lap. Everyone has been saying good things about the track and drivers do not normally speak nonsense when asked about a track. All the teams and a few drivers (including MSC) have had inputs into the design, so, there should be something good that came out of it.
The turn 10/11 complex looks interesting and and turn 2 could throw some surprises too.
Lets just hold our horses until Friday!
Victor. (@victor)
24th October 2011, 14:07
It’s interesting to see how the longest circuits (Spa, Silverstone, Suzuka, Monza) and the shortest (Monte-Carlo, Interlagos, Montreal) are the best races.
bearforce1 (@bearforce1)
24th October 2011, 14:15
A new circuit is exciting.
No previous race data. I think there will be lots of interest this race with strategy. The tyres situation with a claimed two second gap between prime and option. Drivers learning the limits.
Can’t wait. This year has been super it just keeps on giving.
BS (@bs)
24th October 2011, 14:25
I wish they’d just throw a tied string of spaghetti (al dente) onto a model of the designated new track surface and proceed to just make it safe enough for F1. The formulaic approach makes for similar racing, it’s getting boring.
It’s always hard to rule out nostalgia as a factor, but I’ve only been watching F1 since 2008 and don’t look for cues from the past to enjoy today’s racing. The variety of the older tracks makes them interesting, even if there aren’t constant overtakes, at least it makes the ones that do happen worthwhile.
The only track Tilke didn’t mess up was Istanbul. Having seen two fantastic GPs there and unpretentiously driving it in F1 2010, its layout is great. No hairpins (the design of turns 12,13,14 is just inspired as an alternative to the straightforward hairpin) along with a tricky off camber downhill corners 1 and 9,10 (leading into the back “straight”), aside from turn 8 – which unfairly overshadows the other good stuff the track has to offer. Too bad they built it in the wrong place.
I’m also keeping an open mind to the first Indian Grand Prix – and from the Red Bull preview it looks more interesting than other recent additions – but the points stands regardless of the quality of this example.
Alain (@paganbasque)
24th October 2011, 14:34
It seems to be a good track, only because I think that the long straights will let to see some overtakes but nothing more. Tilke always do the same work, his designs are terribly boring, always with the same combination of high and low speed corners, each one in a different sector and never combinated in a more imaginate way.
And my question is, is it impossible to have another track designer? It seems that Tilke has the exlusivity and this is something really disgusting for me.
GeeMac (@geemac)
24th October 2011, 14:38
The short answer is that we just don’t know, and we’ll have to wait and see. It’s looking good so far though, undulating with some good corners, it could well be Tilke’s best track along with Sepang and Istanbul.
taurus (@taurus)
24th October 2011, 15:01
Playing it on F1 2011, its an alright track. Theres a wholly unnecessary left-right in the last sector though.
Imola should be back on the calender, joined by Potrero de los Funes.
The Tilke-dromes are almost universally awful, identikit borefests.
And does Interlagos really have 21 turns?!