The FIA has confirmed Sebastian Vettel did not break the rules concerning overtaking under yellow flags when passing Jean-Eric Vergne during the Brazilian Grand Prix.
Ferrari confirmed they sent the FIA a letter requesting an investigation into whether Vettel illegally overtook the Toro Rosso on lap four on the Reta Oposta straight.
Yellow flags and lights prohibiting overtaking were visible in the run-up to the pass but a green flag indicating drivers could overtake was difficult to see
FIA race director Charlie Whiting told Auto Motor und Sport Vettel had passed a green flag before completing the move. The FIA later confirmed to Autosport the pass was legal.
Had Vettel been retroactively punished for the move, a penalty could have lost him the world championship to Fernando Alonso.
See this forum thread for earlier discussion of the incident.
magon4 (@magon4)
29th November 2012, 11:09
Case closed.
Shouldn’t have been opened in any case.
disjunto (@disjunto)
29th November 2012, 11:12
Clarification from the FIA was required. As much as the internet debated it, official clarification in these types of situations is a must.
Now we move on and forget about it all
Kimi4WDC
29th November 2012, 12:14
Yeah, that what happens when people start looking with something else rather than their eyes. Marshal waving green flag, there is no case to be opened. Some people just need to push it….
Mark (@marlarkey)
29th November 2012, 21:24
Watched it much more closely frame by frame…. and the green flag waving marshal is clear…
Tyler (@tdog)
29th November 2012, 11:13
I’d like to think so @magon4 but given the fervour of a committed hard core, don’t count on it.
Althasil (@althasil)
29th November 2012, 11:31
Shouldn’t have been opened? Really? If I hadn’t read that marshall’s post in the discussion thread I would never have seen the green flag/board. I’m glad that this can be put to bed now, and that I know more about the rules and regulations than I previously did.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 20:58
@althasil – I don’t think a case should’ve been opened as such (although in fairness it was merely a media rumour backed up with pathetic evidence, in particular form the Sky Sports team), more so a case of clarification from the FIA just to silence the petty, ill-informed rumours.
I don’t like the way in which Sky Sports have dealt with these yellow-flag incidents: they should be professional about their coverage and not be quick to jump to conclusions without any conclusive evidence that there may indeed be a case for appeal. They should know very well that the FIA, Ferrari and Red Bull are the only ones qualified to comment upon the issue as they are the ones who have the data – not the pesky media who are just looking to cause an unnecessary stir and make themselves look foolish in the process.
Dean Ritchie
29th November 2012, 12:17
But in Suzuka in 1989 when Prost took out Senna and Senna didn’t drive through the chicane people went on about that for nearly 6 months but this is 10x worse so why aren’t people caring about this incident.
Dean Ritchie
29th November 2012, 12:21
As well as that the incident was only recognized in the middle of the night so if the race directors reviewed it before Ferrari then why didn’t they tell us about it.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 21:14
The incident was recognised likely during the race and is why we never heard anything of it. Ferrari themselves probably knew that it was under green flags and so chose not to make a big fuss of it, unlike certain media organisations who lack any credibility in my opinion.
David-A (@david-a)
29th November 2012, 14:31
This isn’t “10x worse”, because Vettel didn’t even do anything wrong.
Matt stevens
29th November 2012, 13:08
Ok fair enough the move on the toro rosso was.legal! What about vettel passing kobayshi down the home.straight under yellow flag conditions?!.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 13:10
That was legal, as mentioned in the race review:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/25/2012-brazilian-grand-prix-report/
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 15:56
And the one on the HRT?
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 18:06
Again, the pass on the HRT was legal.
Girts (@girts)
29th November 2012, 11:12
According to the Autosport article, ‘The FIA confirmed to AUTOSPORT that no team had asked for a review of the incident.’ How does this go together with Ferrari’s admission that they have sent a letter to FIA asking for the clarification of Vettel’s pass?
Nick (@npf1)
29th November 2012, 11:18
Maybe the FIA investigated before Ferrari sent their request. Ferrari placed the tweet in the middle of the night, the FIA would have to be mighty quick to answer within 12/24 hours.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:18
@girts – A clarification is not a review. The team asks the FIA to clear up certain points that they are uncertain about, and then use that information to reassess what they know. Then they might ask for a review, which is a formal examination of the issue.
DaveF1 (@davef1)
29th November 2012, 11:13
Now can everyone shut up and stop posting the same video of the overtake over and over again in every thread and commenting about it in every fricking article.
Sincerely
Every F1F member
John H (@john-h)
29th November 2012, 11:57
Come on, this is the world championship people have been debating here! Personally I find it quite fun, especially as we now have 4 months of no F1 to contend with!
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 20:18
@davef1 – I agree with @john-h , there is no harm in a friendly debate pre-clarification! Now that it has been clarified though nobody has any right to continue to cite it as an illegal overtake because quite simply it wasn’t.
DaveF1 (@davef1)
29th November 2012, 21:38
@john-h & @vettel1
Oops, my comment was supposed to be a dig at those who were constantly posting a link to the video every article on the site claiming the same thing. Obviously to be it got a bit tedious for me, looking at the comments only to find the same link with the words ‘illegal overtake’.
I’m all for having a friendly debate and of course that comment was only intended to the less civilised people who spew vile hatred all over this site. You both seem like sensible members and my comment wasn’t directed at members such as you two. Hope you kind of see what I’m trying to say :)
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 21:52
@davef1 – I understand; I too find it tedious seeing the same comments and the same links over and over without any real evidence! There is definitely a difference between a debate and just spewing hatred!
David-A (@david-a)
29th November 2012, 22:04
+1 @davef1 !
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:17
I’ll be honest here – I’m disappointed.
I’m not trying to be confrontational or controversial here. And I certainly didn’t hope that Vettel lost his title over it; I might not like Vettel at all, but losing his title meant that Alonso’s promotion would be tainted, and no driver wants to win that way.
But the way I see it, Red Bull have done some questionable things this year. Some of them were minor, like the argument in Monaco over what was a “hole” and what was a “slot”. Others, however, were very serious. The FIA clearly felt that Red Bull was creating a blown diffuser effect in Germany, and had simply found a loophole to get away with it. I, for one, cannot recall the last time that a team was at the centre of four separate legality disputes over the course of a single season.
I suppose that this goes right to the heart of what I value in teams and drivers. I’ve often said that attitude is important, that I can’t respect a driver who is rude over his radio, for instance. The same goes for teams – I can’t respect them if I think their attitude is poor. In Red Bull, I see a team that doesn’t care what people think, so long as it’s winning. And when the FIA announces that no action is to be taken, their reactions thumb their noses at the fans. They might not be cheating, but they are taking huge liberties and abusing the rules.
Red Bull deserved to sweat on this one. Something needs to bring them into account; I honestly believe they will do a lot of damage to the sport if they keep going this way – and they’ll expect us all to thank them for it because they have a lot of success.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 11:22
@prisoner-monkeys
Not here they aren’t. Vettel went past a green flag and then overtook someone. That is 100% legal.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:33
Maybe not here, but this provides the FIA with the best opportunity to stamp out the team’s behaviour. They wouldn’t have to do much; just delay any annoucement for a few days. Let Red Bull sit and stew for a bit, wondering if they really might lose the title over it. They’ve slipped parts past the FIA on technicalities before – the engine mapping in Germany being a prime example – and they do it so frequently that I think they need to be taught a lesson.
Like I said, I’m not opposed to them because they’re successful. I’m opposed to them because of the way that success comes about. They manage to find a grey area in the rules that allows them to use parts that the FIA clearly wants banned – the team agreed to that ban in the first place – so that the most the FIA can do is force them to remove those parts. Then, when their driver performs an illegal pass in that same race, they complain that the penalty is “like the death penalty for stealing a chicken”.
Okay, that was six months ago in Germany, but my point still stands: Red Bull abuse the rules, and then their attitude is appalling. They might as well just stand on the podium and give the fans the bras d’honneur – that’s what it amounts to. The FIA needs to make an example of them: they’ve been abusing the rule book far too often for far too long. Making them sweat and letting believe that maybe, just maybe, they will lose the title on a technicality might drive home some of the humility they sorely need.
Christian Horner has claimed that “success makes you unpopular”. It’s not success that makes you unpopular, Christian. It’s attitude. But if he wants to keep telling himself that, that’s fine by me. To be totally honest, I pity him. It must be such a lonely world that he lives in.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 11:38
@prisoner-monkeys
I’m grateful the FIA acted quickly to remove any doubt about the outcome of the championship and did not prevaricate over what was clearly an open-and-shut case, merely to satisfy your vindictiveness towards Red Bull.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:54
I’m not sure my attitude towards Red Bull is vindictive. To be vindictive shows an unreasoning desire to see revenge exacted, and I certainly don’t think I am being vindictive. Quite the opposite; I have tried to present a rational case as to why I dislike the team. Like I said, I see them as flagrantly abusing the rules, and using a certain meticulousness to find the loopholes and punch their way through. I find it cold and deliberate, as if the ends justify the means, when I myself believe that the means justify the ends. I feel that the team needs to be called into account for what they are doing, because they risk doing serious harm to the sport. They’re not being innovative in their designs. They’ve being deliberately provocative. I simply cannot respect anything that they have done because of the way they present themselves. So I certainly don’t think I’m being vindictive. In fact, I think I am being quite rational about it all. Most of my reputation as a member of the blog community – if it can be said that I have one, and I certainly believe that I do – is based on the idea that I always make a case for my point of view, and the same applies here.
However, if feeling this way about the team makes me petty, then I’m petty. I won’t respect Red Bull just because they’re successful. I won’t respect them just because the FIA says their car is legal. I will, however, respect them if they show respect for the sport. I feel that they are not, and so I cannot. I’m doubtful that anyone from the team will ever see this post. I’m even more doubtful that anyone will act on it if they do. However, I cannot compromise my own values simply because the FIA made a ruling or handled a situation that I disagree with. If I did, I wouldn’t be me.
Mike (@mike)
29th November 2012, 11:45
F1 has always been a fight between the rule makers and the designers and always will be.
aka_robyn (@)
29th November 2012, 11:47
@prisoner-monkeys Let me get this straight: You think everyone should have sat around a couple more days hearing about all this madness, the sport looking more and more ridiculous by the minute, just so that RBR would have to spend some time wringing their hands over what might happen? And then, when it was made clear that they did nothing wrong, suddenly RBR would have an epiphany, see the error of their ways, and stop looking for gray areas in the rules to exploit — which, by the way, is what every F1 team without exception either does or is trying to do? Yeah, that’s a *fantastic* idea.
tmax (@tmax)
29th November 2012, 13:52
Ferriari and Alonso are planning to write a letter to FIA asking for review of the Championship results because they suspect that yesterday while driving on the road Vettel might not have brought his car to a complete stop at a Stop Sign !!!!
Ace of base
29th November 2012, 11:53
I guess you would have preferred Alonso to be world champion on the back of Ferrari breaking Massa’s gearbox seal. In any other sport they would have received penalties for unsporting conduct. Ferrari should concentrate on improving the car instead of dirty mind games
JohnBt (@johnbt)
29th November 2012, 12:19
+1
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:26
My complaint is Red Bull is inter-team team orders, with Scuderia Toro Rosso. What Ferrari did, falls in the spirit of team orders, which though not fair, is perfectly legal. Webber was given team orders at Interlagos too. What I’m really surprised is at the way the Toro Rossos(especially Vergne) jump out of the way when ‘big brother’ comes their way. It was comical to see Vergne outbrake himself and run off wide at Abu Dhabi when Vettel came up behind them. Inter-team team orders are not allowed in the sport, and it is both unfair and illegal. According to then BBC pit lane reporter James Allen, Williams and McLaren were involved in something similar, and McLaren allegedly brought David Coulthard into the pits earlier than planned, because the team didn’t want him holding up Villeneuve who came behind him after his pitstop. I’m not suggesting anything, but…….
Churaragi
29th November 2012, 17:30
As a Brazilian, damn well done sir. I simply can’t belive how many Ferrari fans just want to strip Vettel’s title and give it to a man, who is part of a team, who would do something like that, and act as if they have some sort of moral high ground at this point.
If Vettel doesn’t deserve his tittle, neither does Alonso after that. Unfortunately they didn’t have the balls to do the same thing again in São Paulo, I would have loved that.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
29th November 2012, 18:22
I don’t know if you’re trying to hide the truth on us or on yourself it’s funny to see a Red Bull fan or i call them the anti_Ferrari talking about “Dirty Mind Games”
Everyone who watch F1 knows that Red Bull Racing is the only team that have been involved in many controversies in one season Flexi wings, hole, floor,ride height , Engine Mapping ,blocking other drivers in qualifying,Torro Rosso drivers opening the doors even Micheal Shumacher joined the party ( hopefully hamilton took his place )
I don’t know how Ferrari is involved in all this, they have just asked for clarification (especially if we know that the FIA doesn’t do its job unless a team asked for )
Gerdoner (@gerdoner)
29th November 2012, 19:24
@chicanef1 i know it’s really far fetched, and old, and i’m not even sure if I remember the situation as it happened, but didn’t ferrari “ask” the (then ferrari-powered) sauber team to hold up villeneuve in jerez in 1997? as i said, i’m not 100% sure, and i can’t verify it atm… but let’s put it this way, it wouldn’t surprise me if ferrari did something similar ;)
John H (@john-h)
29th November 2012, 12:05
I’m baffled by these comments, especially from F1F’s most active member. I don’t wish to patronise, but all of what you describe has been going on in F1 since its existence!
Well done Red Bull I say.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
29th November 2012, 13:17
My sense is that Red Bull first do the deed, then wait to see if they are caught, if they are they try to argue their way through it.
I do agree that it’s TOO late to take the championship and no championship should be decided that way. This should have been caught in race and in all honesty Vettel deserved a drive through penalty at the start of the race for the incident he caused.
Vettel should NOT have been passing anyone in yellow flags in the first place – it’s absurd that he would jeopardize his championship that way.
Of course, Red Bull can argue that Vettel wasn’t really passing Vergne as he’s part of team Red Bull and it’s a “free pass” which we’ve discussed in another topic;-)
Can anyone see Hamilton NOT getting penalized there or NOT getting a drive through penalty for the incident at the start of the race?
Vettel gets away with everything – even his car didn’t break down after the collision but 2 other cars broke down adding insult to injury…
Dev (@dev)
29th November 2012, 19:21
every team would do what RBR did if they thought about it first… extreme interpretation of rules are not new to F1. But i doubt that RBR are breaking any rules.
As for the current situation Vettel saw a green flag and overtook a car which happened to be STR, which is perfectly legal anyhow you look at it. One might say the STR did not fight for it’s position but that still does not make that move illegal. what Ferrari did to Massa was also perfectly legal, changing gearbox and giving one position to Alonso even before the race began… which is something to be shameful about for Ferrari. But coming back to the current controversy, overtaking under green flag has always been legal… dunno how we can even call it a controversy.
Banburyhammer (@banburyhammer)
30th November 2012, 1:26
On a technicality. Meaning its still legal.
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:02
@keithcollantine Wow, you think a reply of three lines can ever be enough to answer such a long paragraph? You picked up only one topic, which we now know for sure was legal. What about the other things they’ve done that have questionable legality.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 16:24
@chicanef1
Quality over quantity.
They have been discussed at length elsewhere and, as I said, aren’t relevant to an article about Vettel being shown to have legitimately overtaken another car under green flags.
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:35
@keithcollantine
What I’m saying is you evaded most of PM’s allegations. You simply stated a fact that PM knows. Its not that PM disagrees with the ruling.
How can you decide what is relevant and what isn’t? So many times people have written comments which are indirectly related to that same article. You were never up in arms then. So why now?
David-A (@david-a)
29th November 2012, 19:15
@chicanef1 – Most of PM’s allegations have nothing to do with Interlagos anyway. He’s basically, ridiculously, said, “Red Bull have been in trouble for other stuff, so let’s punish hem for this, even though Vettel did nothing wrong”. His wall of text isn’t worth the effort, especially since PM admits he’s only coming up with this because he is being petty.
Maksutov (@maksutov)
30th November 2012, 2:15
@David-A
I believe PM was simply making a generalised conclusion that he was disappointed with how RB team handled themselves over the course of this season. The message that I got was that RB have been involved, and thus got away, with too many questionable incidences this year. I guess that is what happens when you push the boundaries, and unfortunately in this sport that is what it takes to win…
Needles
29th November 2012, 19:41
Hi everybody. Hi Keith. I have to disagree with that Keith. Vettel was gassing it hard under yellow. Yellow rules state to slow down. He was treating it like it was a restart one could ‘time’ and get a jump, when actually, as long as the yellows are out, it is dangerous and there is nothing to time. You have to not be gassing it until it goes green. How did Vettel know that the yellow was not for cars blocking the track, yet there he was at full speed and making an attacking pass. Ouch. I feel that whatever the rule is for ignoring yellows should be applied, but it should have been applied within a couple laps because now it’s all about if it’s ok for one to ignore on-track safety devices to win a championship.
I don’t dislike Vettel, of course I am gonna call him an idiot for gassing it to pass under yellow on a wet track, and I’m gonna say the same for the stewards for not flagging him at the time, and I say the same for the FIA for claiming that safety is of the utmost importance, yet saying it was ok to gas hard under yellow as to get a jump on someone while on a wet track under yellow and terrible visibility.
^Mo^
29th November 2012, 11:27
Live with it. The teams and drivers do all sorts of questionable things to win a championship and Red Bull is hardly unique in this. It’s always been that way. Everything Red Bull and Vettel have done that broke the rules, they’ve been punished for it. And in other occasions they bent the rules a bit, or found loopholes in it. In my opinion that what Formula 1 should be about, to try and find the limits. Maybe some things they’ve done haven’t been in “the spirit of the rule”, but then again, same goes for Ferrari doesn’t it? By breaking the seal on Massa’s gearbox they ensured Alonso had an uneven grid slot for example. Sure, all legal and that, but not quite what the rule was intended for. But I’m sure every team (no matter what they say) will do the same in that position. Teams and drivers just do whatever it takes to win, as every one should. And if they step over the line, they’ll be punished accordingly.
Rob87
29th November 2012, 11:31
Why RedBull is racing with 4 cars (Toro Rosso and RB) and giving orders to 3 different drivers to let pass SV ? It happened at will this year. Shall we talk about that or not ?
Churaragi
29th November 2012, 18:19
Ferrari and co are more than welcome to buy HRT and do the same if they want.
Ariel Seoane (@seo1970)
29th November 2012, 19:24
Ferrari has been doing it with Sauber for many many years. No need to buy HRT.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:36
I would hardly call being forced to remove questionable parts a “punishment” because for every lap they do with those parts, they get an unfair advantage.
^Mo^
29th November 2012, 11:45
And how is Red Bull different from every other team? They’ll all do that if they can come up with it. Brawn’s double diffuser was questionable, or at least a loop hole. McLaren’s F-Duct was questionable, or their second brake pedal (’97). Renault’s mass damper, legal at first, but banned later. Red Bull didn’t put illegal parts on their car, because if they did, the FIA would’ve disqualified them. They may have been questionable, but not illegal (subtle difference).
brny666
29th November 2012, 11:56
@Mo. Don’t bring your facts and reason here, we don’t want it, can you not see that we are extremely angry that are favourite driver/team are not good enough to beat Vettel/RBR?
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:57
There is a world of difference between spotting a loophole in the regulations that allows you to try something new and clever like the F-duct, and spotting a loophole in the regulations that allows you to do something that has been banned, like Red Bull’s throttle maps in Germany.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 12:02
I find it amusing the way you automatically assume that Alonso and Ferrari are my favourite driver and team.
Girts (@girts)
29th November 2012, 12:12
@prisoner-monkeys If those throttle maps had been banned by the rules, then Red Bulls would have been disqualified from the race. There is a big difference between doing things that the FIA simply did not want to see the teams do (like F-ducts, double diffusers, exhaust blown diffusers etc.) and doing something that is banned.
I guess there will now be a lot of comments at this article, which is something that I am happy about as F1F is by far the website ever. But the article is actually about Vettel’s pass on Vergne and FIA’s stance on it, not how good or evil Red Bull as a team are.
^Mo^
29th November 2012, 12:15
Oh, I thought their interpretation of the rule was pretty clever :) Just as McLaren’s was very clever to develop the F-Duct, kudos to them for that.
The engine mapping was deemed legal by the stewards at the German Grand Prix, and only after that the FIA was able to close the loophole. Questionable? Sure. Not what they intended with the rule? Absolutely. Illegal? Not at the time.
^Mo^
29th November 2012, 12:18
@brny666 cheers mate! :)
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 21:22
I agree that is an unreasonable assumption but I think what is more relevant is the obvious hatred you have for Red Bull. Whether you agree with their team ethics or not it doesn’t give you the right to make allegations against them. Frankly, I value the FIA’s interpretation of events more highly than most (and I group you under the “most” category) so essentially I mirror their opinion. As far as I’m concerned RBR are like every other team in finding loopholes for performance gains, the only difference being they are better.
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:37
+1
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 20:47
@prisoner-monkeys
May I ask since when was running a legal car gaining an unfair advantage? The components weren’t questionable because they FIA had already questioned them and had accepted Red Bull’s rule interpretation. Therefore, the questionability of the parts was already answered during scrutiny.
invisiblekid
29th November 2012, 11:30
Like this. Sorry but RB have been getting away with a lot. Well, OK not getting away with it, but having been caught numerous times in one season and the treatment of Vettel over his accident with Webber has dropped them from my “even tolerant of” team list.
Of course the messy outcome if Vettels move was illegal is something no-one would want including me. HOWEVER, Vettel started the move under yellow conditions and it appears by luck the green flag came before he finished the move. I dunno if he could see the green light before starting to overtake, if he did, then well done. If not, then he’s a lucky little ****!
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 11:35
You overlook that Vettel had gone through the yellow flag zone, he would have seen where the incident was and would certainly know where the green flag zone would begin (as I alluded to in this comment).
You might not be familiar with the rules but you’re kidding yourself if you think a professional racing driver isn’t.
invisiblekid
29th November 2012, 11:44
My apologies. I missread/heard/seen it was the green flag much earlier on people were talking about.
It was the green light at the end of the straight I thought ppl were talking about.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
29th November 2012, 12:58
Knowing the rules and sticking by them is not always the same thing. Vetel might not have known he needs to stay close to the car ahead when behind the safety car the first time he was warned about it, but he was still upset when he got penalised after he did it again.
Also, he knows not to overtake outside of the track, but …
etc etc etc
Brace (@brace)
29th November 2012, 16:36
how can he know there isn’t some other accident up the road, or some marshal near the track? he can’t know the reason why there are yellow flags. he can only assume it’s the same as in previous lap, but can’t know that for sure. and since when is it up to driver to determine when the yellow flag zone should end? there are marshals who determine that and only after you have passed the green flag, should you think about commencing the overtaking move.
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:45
@keithcollantine But Vettel did draw alongside Vergne at the yellow zone, didn’t he? So that proves either of three things:
1. He’s a cheat.
2. He’s unaware of what is there on his dashboard. If that’s so, it casts a serious doubt on his racing faculties.
3. It simply confirms that Vergne, as we all know, is in this seat to jump out of Vettel’s way, even if that means lifting off on the straight or something.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
29th November 2012, 17:30
@chicanef1 What it proves is Vettel knows the rules better than you do.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 21:59
@chicanef1 – Vettel is not “a cheat” as if he were to have breached the rules he would’ve most likely received a drive-through during the race (as he did in Spain). Cheats don’t prosper in this sport and in actual fact all your comment shows, as Keith has said, that Vettel knows the rules better than you do.
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
30th November 2012, 5:28
@vettel1 I never said that Vettel was a cheat. All I said that it is one of the possibilities(and certainly the option with the longest shot). The more probable thing is that Vergne did what he is always told by his boss
esto jump out of the way when one of the drivers of the ‘big brother’ team come up from behind.John H (@john-h)
29th November 2012, 12:17
Drivers look at the road and look for the designated flag marshals. They know where the marshall posts are, and if a guy is waving a green flag then perhaps he noticed it.
Try driving just looking at your spedometer while on the motorway in the wet sometime.
Hmmm
29th November 2012, 11:32
I do not understand why are you bringing the car into this. This is article is about the driver and not the car. Your comment are two isolated cases.
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 11:40
Then read my comment again. Red Bull have been at the centre of four separate technical disputes over the past year, and on each occasion, the car has been judged legal because of a technicality. It’s rampant behaviour that needs to be sorted out because they’re abusing the rules.
This incident with Vettel gave the FIA an opportunity to teach the team a lesson. If they’d reserved judgement for a few days, maybe dropped a few hints that there was a case against Vettel and that the outcome of that case rested on a mere technicality that could lose Vettel the title, then maybe the team would be less inclined to abuse the rules in future.
pSynrg (@psynrg)
29th November 2012, 11:55
PM, you’re just ranting. Get over it. Red Bull won both titles, fair and square. They are subject to the same technical and sporting rules as all other teams. Where there was a question of legality it was dealt with properly. Where they had to change they overcame it through technical brilliance and a driver that could deliver when needed.
Why not simply enjoy the phenomenal world class achievements of (Stewart/Jaguar)Red Bull, all from the often derided roundabout town of Milton Keynes? It’s an amazing story!
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys)
29th November 2012, 12:00
But that’s my point – they have resorted to doing things that are not fair. Or is it just coincidence that the Toro Rossos move over every time a Red Bull comes to pass, but put up considerably more resistance to everyone else?
John H (@john-h)
29th November 2012, 12:22
Here I agree with you PM, but this is something the FIA need to clamp down on, it’s not Red Bull’s responsibility if they are allowed to do it.
PaulT (@pault)
29th November 2012, 21:37
@prisoner-monkeys @john-h
“every time”? I can clearly remember at least one (if not more) instances this year when Ricciardo battled with Webber for position.
John H (@john-h)
29th November 2012, 12:19
It gets worse. Seriously, what are you on about?
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 17:50
@prisoner-monkeys – It is by no coincidence that Red Bull were never penalised during the technical disputes. The car was deemed legal by the FIA. Quite simply, the rules are the same for anyone and if one team can eek out an advantage that the other’s can’t then that team will win the title most likely.
There is no such thing as “spirit of the rules”: a rule is black and white text and nothing more. If one team can find a grey area in this black and white then they should be applauded for their genius in my mind, not ridiculed.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
29th November 2012, 18:37
The problem that the Red Bull’s didn’t found a grey area they were just in the Black area (if the regulation stated that the driver torque map should match the engine torque map & it wasn’t then the Bull’s should have been disqualified )
I think the main problem is not the Red Bull but it is the FIA, the FIA’s main role is to ensure that the rules are respected by all the teams but this year we saw that the FIA doesn’t investigate anything unless one or more team have protested which is i think due to the incompetence of the FIA engineers
Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
29th November 2012, 20:32
@tifoso1989
The rule’s are stated here: Red Bull Engine map controversy. As is said in the article, by the “intention” of the rule they had breached it but by the black and white they had not. That’s what it really boils down to: Red Bull had not broken the wording of the rule. Simply put, in F1 there is no such thing as “spirit of the rule”; the only spirit in the rule is what’s said.
All the teams know this and all the teams take advantage of this: it is just one of those things that makes F1 so interesting from a technical aspect in my opinion. The cleverest designers prevail – of late that has been Adrian Newey and his team.
b
29th November 2012, 12:05
What a wall of text. Did you even begin to reflect what mclaren or ferrari are doing in the first place?
Or are you such a diehard/hardcore ferrari fan that it just slipped past your sights?
You speak of loopholes, and team’s attitude to racing(as long as they’re winning).
Look at Ferrari, they pulled the gearbox seal of Massa to put Alonso up the grid on the cleaner side,
Of course they got away with that, it wasn’t a FIA violation, right?
Right. hypocrite. Now get off your tall horse and see things as they are.
Just because there are no regulations governing them, you see the stronger opponent as cheating.
While when it happens to the teams you support, you cheer and ask for more?
COME ON.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
29th November 2012, 12:15
It was a loophole. Loopholes happen, and they need clarification. I don’t see anything illegal there… there was a clarification, and they acted accordingly.
The legallity of a car that, just like that, scores 5 poles in a row, is always going to be questioned. Remember the ride hieght system? they were all talking about it and such system never existed. Same with the “starts only” KERS from last year. And the flexi-wings that flex, have never been ilegal.
Red Bull did nothing wrong. They are just finding the limit every other team wants to find… their car has always been legal
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1)
29th November 2012, 16:56
@fer-no65 Red Bull were legal for one race, and in posterity, rules came into place and if they’d kept the car as it had been, the car would’ve been illegal.
It seems that Red Bull are leading the way with new things and the FIA are playing catch-up to illegalise them.
Pride
29th November 2012, 12:39
I don´t think Red bull is a cheater. They just try to do the best car by the rules and if they find loopholes in the rules that doesn`t mean you are cheating and that is what every designer have done over the years including Ferrari.
In pure racing perspective I do believe Alonso is a crying baby an that is the reason I am not a fan of him although I consider him a great driver. He has always been involved in dirty tricks or complaints. When Hamilton was his teamate, he was always crying because he could not believe a rookie was beating him. He was involved in the spy gate at Mclaren. Then he moved to Renault and was involved in the crash gate. Now in Ferrari he uses Massa as his servant. On the other side Vettel races including his teamate,(as we saw Webber`s move in the start which could have caused Vettel-Senna crash), there are no team orders, no gearbox changes to start first, no Sebastian is faster than you, etc,etc,etc.
It is very clear that Vettel made a completely legal pass, and it is amazing that Alonso forced Ferrari to clarify something that the FIA would have done it anyway.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
29th November 2012, 18:42
& the Torro Rosso drivers too
no front wing change too
box box box …..mark maintain the gap ….thank you mark
Patrickl (@patrickl)
29th November 2012, 13:02
Agreed, Red Bull should be forced to have their “loophole” interpretations checked by the FIA before they are allowed to race with their illegal parts for several races.
If it’s like the F-Duct (and thus allowed) then fine, but now they keep using things that turn out to be illegal and need to be removed from the car.
thatscienceguy
29th November 2012, 13:22
They are checked before they are allowed to race. The stewards at each race check the cars, and decide whether something contravenes the rules or not. They deemed on multiple occassions that the Red Bull cars WERE NOT ILLEGAL.
The rules were then later clarified to close a loophole. That still means that at the time of racing, the cars were legal.
You’re going on like this is the first time this has ever happened. Just about every team has been in this exact situation, and every team will find itself in this exact situation again. In fact, every team wants to be in this situation, and are working to be in this situation.
Robbie (@robbie)
29th November 2012, 15:54
@prisoner-monkeys … I totally get you on this, as evidenced by my fairly frequent rants about MS/Benetton and MS/Ferrari. I can’t think of an