Porsche, World Endurance Championship, 2014

‘Impossible’ to compete in both F1 and LMP1 – Ferrari

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Porsche, World Endurance Championship, 2014In the round-up: Piero Ferrari says it is not possible to run an LMP1 contender in the World Endurance Championship at the same time as participating in Formula One.


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Interview with Piero Ferrari (Motorsport)

“I’d say it’s quite impossible to do a full LMP1 and F1 programme – for us. It would be incredibly demanding technologically and financially. You have to do one or the other.”

Williams likely to be Massa’s last F1 team (Crash)

“I don’t know how long I will stay here, so I think maybe it can be my last team, definitely… I think it will be my last team.”

Teams show little enthusiasm as third car debate rumbles on (Adam Cooper’s F1 Blog)

Toto Wolff: “I’m not a big fan of it. A third car means additional costs, the way you can refinance it is not enough, so even for the smaller teams it wouldn’t be a profitable business case to put in a third car, and for the moment I don’t see that coming.”

Ecclestone: Ticket prices up to teams (Autosport)

“‘Has he told you how?’ asked Ecclestone about [Toto] Wolff’s call for lower ticket prices. ‘You should tell him about reducing what they want for racing, and then we can reduce the fees.'”

Eddie, 15 years on (Ferrari)

Eddie Irvine: “I always watch the races, even if I’m not particularly keen on the new things like the boost button and the DRS, the fact the noise has gone and having races in countries with no motor sport tradition.”

Insight: Keeping the F1 teams safe from cyber attacks (James Allen on F1)

“We protect the perimeter for Ferrari, we protect the factory, the PCs, but that isn’t enough. You have to also analyse where the threats are coming from and reroute the malicious guys.”

Minardi PS01B Blown Diffuser (ScarbsF1)

“Introduced at Spa and run at the last races, the PS01 was updated to the PS01B with this blown floor concept incorporated into it (driven by [Fernando] Alonso, [Tarso] Marques and [Alex] Yoong)”

Vijay Mallya woes continue as Forbes drops tycoon from billionaire list (The Financial Express)

“UB Group Chairman Vijay Mallya is no longer a member of India’s 100 Richest club, even as fortunes of the country’s uber-rich have seen a significant growth since last year.”

Red Bull must apply team orders on Sebastian Vettel to help Daniel Ricciardo’s Formula One title hopes (Fox Sports Australia)

“Only one of their drivers holds a legitimate chance of winning this year’s world championship and, awkwardly, it’s not the German who won them their last four.”


Comment of the day

There seems to be little enthusiasm for three-car teams – @StefMeister gave a list of reasons why.

  • If you have a season like this with a dominant car we could see 1 team lock out the podium and the constructors championship be locked up earlier.
  • It pushes the mid-field teams further back, Reduces the chance of them scoring points and puts them in further financial difficulties.
  • If you say the 3rd car is ineligible for points, You could have the 3rd cars used for strategic reasons to block rival teams for championship reasons.
  • Could also cause problems in the pits as three cars for one pit box is going to be a real traffic jam during safety car periods where everyone pits.
  • It puts a bigger financial strain on the teams as they would need to bring more equipment to races, More staff, buy/use more components/tyres through a season and remember that it’s not just the bottom three or four teams who are marginal on finances as it is.
  • It also puts off new teams joining, We have Haas F1 coming for 2016. With three-car teams where would they fit in?

Like many other things the past few years, There just trying to stick a plaster over something without doing anything about the actual underlying problem.

What they should be doing is cutting costs and distributing the prize money in a fairer way so that every team gets a decent amount. The way its done at present is fundamentally broken and is a big part of why many teams are in the financial situation they’re in.

From the forum

Happy birthday!

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On this day in F1

Rubens Barrichello won the first ever Chinese Grand Prix ten years ago today. Jenson Button was second for BAR ahead of Kimi Raikkonen’s McLaren.

Here’s the start of the race:

Image © Porsche

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  • 66 comments on “‘Impossible’ to compete in both F1 and LMP1 – Ferrari”

    1. I don’t know if it’s just me, but it seems our media piles so much rubbish on Vettel. It just seems unnecessary.

      1. The Australian media is particularly bad at this. They ignore the fact that Vettel and Ricciardo seem to get along quiet well. They like to sell the story that Australian’s are meant to hate Vettel because of past clashes between him and Webber, and the majority of the Australian public seem to lap it up. For example back at the 2011 Australian Grand Prix, my fried got a ribbing from another spectator because she was wearing a Vettel cap as opposed to a Webber gap, and every race there will be at least one person on my facebook feed spewing out hate towards Vettel.

        Off topic a bit, but in my opinion as a Webber fan, Vettel did nothing to Webber, that Webber wouldn’t have done to Vettel if he had of been the more dominant driver.

      2. It’s not just you mate, I see it too, and it is highly unnecessary.

      3. Fox Sports is particularly terrible about Vettel. Ask Webber, the feud is in the past, but Fox Sports don’t seem to think that.

      4. In the meantime British media won’t spare a word to praise Hamilton. It’s the time. It’ll all wave over.

        1. @xtwl They praise him but I think they still spare a sentence or 2 :)

      5. If Daniel Ricciardo wins 2014 WDC I’ll eat my shoe.

        1. Got your name noted in case that he does win ;).

          1. a futile exercise indeed as he will not win it. Impossible.

            1. @ngwe23
              Lol Impossible? I think you need to check the definition of the word. Improbable yes, impossible, no. Imagine if Ricciardo had thought ‘Its IMPOSSIBLE to win this year’ at the start of the season ;-)

            2. @Aus Fan Imagine what Ricciardo would be thinking had he not been DSQ’d from Australia. Only 42 points off.

          2. @turbof1 I was “this close” from saying “If Daniel Ricciardo beats one or Merc drivers for second in final standings I’ll eat my shoe” :)

    2. Both red bull drivers have the slimmest of chances of winning the title, therefore the guys with the least slim should be favoured.
      If I want a white tshirt, but can only choose between cream and grey, i’d choose the cream coloured one. it’s closer.

      1. None of them have a chance – realistically speaking. So why put Vettel through the humiliation and agony of team orders. Let them race I say.

      2. The issue is, would Vettel -do- it?

        We’ve seen Vettel ignore team orders before. We’ve seen him do it this year, even. If the team says “let Daniel pass you” and Vettel says “tough luck” once more, what then? You get drama, you get tension, you get your guys knifing into each other on the second lap, you probably don’t end up changing the constructor’s championship one bit (Red Bull has a clean run to second from here, no matter which of their drivers is on top).

        Vettel has earned the right to be called “one of the greats” – even if the car has let him down this year, the four years before that were no fluke. And Riccardio’s success must be immensely gratifying to the architects of Red Bull’s young driver program (I, for one, must admit that when I heard of his hiring last year, I was mystified… but he’s silenced nay-sayers in the most emphatic way possible.) They’ve apparently got an excellent working relationship and the team is in a great position for 2015, assuming Renault can deliver something with more power than a Taco Bell-fueled fart next year. Why screw that up for a snowball’s chance in hell this year?

      3. doesn’t it depend on the shade of grey? ;)

    3. Yes, mathematically Vettel could still win the championship but practically he has no chance. Riccarido on the other hand does have a practical and realistic chance to win, if we see the Mercedes decline in reliability or if Red Bull’s performance gains are genuine then he will be up there fighting at every round from now on.

      1. @jarred-walmsley maybe is a lot of Red Bull self confidence. Remember in 2010 Webber had more chances than Vettel to win the championship (I understand and accept SV and MW were closer in the points) but if they had used team orders in Brazil, now Fernando Alonso would have one more championship.
        Maybe, just maaaaaaaaybe, Red Bull believes that after having closed the gap lately, that trend will continue until they surpass Mercedes race pace, plus, (and this is the big if) Vettel “wakes up” and starts to win in a row right now, he can come within the 50 points margin to Abu Double.
        To be honest, that sounds illogical and delusional even for me, a big Vettel / Red Bull fan. It might also be part of Vettel’s contract, to decide when (and if) he wants to help his teammate.

        1. Chris (@tophercheese21)
          26th September 2014, 5:14

          The thing is though, Red Bull, nor anyone for that matter will surpass Mercedes pace, both on the long runs, and race pace.

          Red Bull just seemed to closer in Singapore because it’s a track that doesn’t penalise a bad engine quite so much, and even then, Hamilton was untouchable.

          Yes Vettel and Ricciardo have a mathematical chance, but neither of them have any realistic chances because Mercedes is so much faster.

          Reliability is their only hope.

          1. Chris (@tophercheese21)
            26th September 2014, 5:16

            both on the long runs, and race pace.

            *both on one-lap pace, and race pace.

        2. omarr-pepper ” (I understand and accept SV and MW were closer in the points) but if they had used team orders in Brazil, now Fernando Alonso would have one more championship” Great point mate.
          That 2010 season is a perfect example why team orders are tricky and can sometimes backfire, so it should be in the books of F1. This year even if Mercedes stops developing this years car (which in my opinion they should) they will easily win next races so no chance for Red Bull IMO.

      2. Yeah but you wouldn’t put your shirt on either of them winning ……. whatever the eventual colour……

        1. Should have been to @sato113

      3. Does anyone really believes Ricciardo will win EDC?

        1. I don’t believe it, but it is a remote possibility, so I would not be “blown out of my socks” if that happens.
          But in 2 races or so, he will drop out of the chase for good…

    4. Agree with Red Bull’s stance… should be no arranged team orders until it’s absolutely certain the team-ordered driver can’t take the title.

      From that point on, they’re fine… but I’ll always look slightly distainfully upon a driver who used team orders to beat a rival who didn’t.

    5. Is this 2004 F1 China video on “FF” mode???
      Way to fast

    6. The redbull situation is a tough call , but am glad they could race , Seb earned his trophy

      1. that trophy must be very sour though – Just look at Vettel’s face in the podium pics.

        1. Yep you could see the moment after the race that Ricciardo told Vettel he had an ERS problem the whole race and Vettel’s face dropped as he realised that he hadn’t actually finally broken through on pace compared to his teammate like he thought he had.

          1. OK, massive brain fart ,my bad !!

            DanRic has ERS issues so instead of Seb earning his trophy , can i say , Seb was lucky to get that trophy,

    7. Oh yeah!

      Happy Birthday to me, yippee.

      Have a piece of cake on me, :)

    8. Bernie is a master of the partial truth, yes the teams do get either 63 or 70% of fees race promoters pay but those fees are only about one third of the income that the teams not Bernie, generate. It is well within the power of FOM/CVC/Bernie to reduce the burden on promoters and decrease ticket prices while still returning a very healthy profit to the investors who contribute nothing to F1, their only contribution is to the obscene amount of money Bernie and his licensee CVC have taken from F1.

      1. It’s very simple, F1 has become a victim of it’s own success.
        If you look at 20 or 30 years ago (when we had lots of teams) sponsors weren’t willing to put too much money into F1 because there wasn’t as many viewers as there are today, the difference between the top teams and the rest wasn’t as pronounced, there was a sort of “natural” budget cap.

        But as F1 became more popular big corporations like Marlboro, Red Bull, Petronas and big car manufacturers like Renault, Toyota, BMW allowed the top teams to raise the bar incredibly high in terms of technology and resources needed to be competitive. But of course backmarker teams remained the same with just a handful of sponsors and not much else, with the new regulations and the more expensive engines this could be tipping point for more than one team (it almost was for Caterham just months ago).

        Telling the sponsors to spend less is obviously not an option and just giving the smaller teams more money won’t work in the long term so there has to be a fundamental change in the way F1 as a whole gets it money whether it’s teams, FOM, promoters, broadcasters or sponsors, a balance has to be achieved in every aspect… how? that’s the million dollar question isn’t it :)

        1. An F1 progressive tax on the sponsorship income of top teams?

      2. It is the teams’ fault that ticket prices are so high as they have meekly allowed Bernie a position of such power.

        Mr E only acts in the interest of the sport’s owners, they are the ones who pay his salary and keep him in power. From memory (of reading Joe Saward’s blog) the teams, for fielding the cars and drivers which provide the spectacle, are paid less than half of the total revenue that ‘Formula One’ generates. Bernie is paid around £7m for selling the TV rights and organising the races while the owners CVC sit back pocket more than half the revenue.

        The teams seem unable to pull together and put themselves in a more powerful position within the structure of F1, they just seem to fall apart squabbling over minor issues, allowing Bernie to walk all over them.

      3. Ticket prices are high because that is the almost the only source of outcome for the organizers, that have to pay a fee (varies per circuit and Monca seems to not pay anything) to FOM but they don’t get any part of the sponsor or TV rights.
        Bernie is clever in saying that the high fees is because the teams want more money!

        F1 is a curious business. It needs teams and tracks to occur, but both of them have to pay (and a lot) to be part and the biggest source of income for the sport (overall sponsor and media rights) stay with the guys that run the show. Basically everybody needs to pay to be part of the show and only few get a piece of the pie, and the bigger part stays with the “middle-man”, Bernie.

    9. It would be pretty awesome to see Ferrari back at Le Mans! I used to love the 333 SP!..hope we get to see a LaFerrari LMP1 for real.

      ..the question that FCA will be asking is that which is a better marketting tool? WEC or F1?

    10. So Minardi and Gustav Brunner pioneered FRIC *and* Blown Diffusers? Never knew that.

      But of course, nothing good ever comes from these smaller midfield and backmarker teams. Better contract them to allow for 3-car teams.

      1. Well not really, no. Blown diffusors were things that were pioneered far earlier (read 1980s) and Minardi only adoped them when the top teams were already going on to the periscope type exhausts (blown diffusors having the disadvantage of being hugely throttle sensitive).

        Fric – yes that was something were Minardi were amonst the first to try it.

        But I do agree about the sentiment. Toleman gave Senna his first drive, many engineers started at small outfits too (including Newey, Brawn, Byrne and Head)

      2. @rjoconnell
        The blown diffuser was pioneered by Lotus JPS, the idea came from the fact that Lotus engineers noticed that a certain Ayrton Senna was able to open the throttle in the middle of slow/medium corners.
        The meeting point between Mercedes and Minardi FRIC is Aldo Costa.He first tried the FRIC when he was working in Minardi before joining Ferrari

    11. Massa: I dont know, maybe, definitely, I think.

      I guess he didnt say “for sure”.

      1. @austus Actually he did…

        “I don’t know how long I will stay here, so I think maybe it can be my last team, definitely… I think it will be my last team,” Massa said. “I don’t know when it will happen – the time to stop – but for sure I am a happy man and I want to be racing as long as I am at the top level.

    12. It’s interesting that in the Ferrari video, Irvine actually said he doesn’t mind the noise issue.

      I wonder where they got that quote from – is this someone twisting words for a political reason I wonder?

      1. @mouse_nightshirt Great spot. Here’s what he says in the video for those who haven’t watched it yet:

        I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t like the noise. I actually like the noise because now I don’t have to put earplugs in. So for me the the noise level’s the same because before I put earplugs in and now I don’t have to.

        As for Ferrari, we all know what their stance on this subject is.

    13. So Redbull decided to go with team orders in China and Bahrain, and now that Ricciardo has a mathematical and realistic chance at winning the title they won’t use them? I’m all for letting drivers race but if Mercedes is starting to show cracks then they should be implemented.
      Having said that…We’re in for some pretty incredible 5 races

      1. In both previous races there was a possibility there would be a points gain following the team order, in Singapore the result would’ve been the same, for the team of course.

        1. Ricciardo would’ve had 3 more points…

      2. Actually, he has a higher mathematical chance at the beginning of the season. Also, as @xtwl mentioned, the team orders benefitted the team as a whole

    14. Nothing against Red Bull (they obviously have a top team of engineers), but these supposed chinks in the Mercedes machine that everyone keeps talking about aren’t really adding up. They annihilated the field at Italy and Lewis didn’t exactly struggle to lap two seconds quicker than Seb in spite of having older tyres.

      Since when does one race of the competition being a little closer in qualifying mean they have turned the tables? Red Bull was close in Monaco too, and they didn’t exactly maintain that form.

      1. @bforth the fact that one Mercedes was effectively eliminated off the grid not withstanding?

        They [Red Bull] are pretty open about the fact they can’t beat Mercedes in a straight fight – they’ve just got to be there if they trip over each other or fail. They’re certainly the most adept team operationally to be ready to capitalise, given their pit stops are generally second only to McLaren these days and their car is still fairly mega in slow-to-medium speed corners.

        Mercedes are just lucky to have such an obscene power surplus that they can run barn-door front and rear wings and still out-drag most of the opposition…

        1. Not lucky. Better

    15. Red Bull’s stance on team orders is a joke. Vettel was only ahead of Webber by 12 points going into the 2010 British Grand Prix, but they saw fit to “take” Webber’s wing and give it to Vettel.

      All this talk about “mathematical chances” is serving purely to massage Vettel’s ego; I suspect in the hopes that he won’t jump ship at the end of his contract (or sooner!) in-line with the departure of Newey and Pomodru (sp?)!

      1. @oblong_cheese In the five years Vettel and Webber were team mates, you cannot claim a single race when they did not have equal equipment as being representative of the team’s approach instead of the 93 other races when they had the same car. Particularly when on that one occasion Red Bull did bring two examples of the new front wing, but one was damaged in a crash, and Webber initially discarded the upgrade, leading to the sole remaining example being put on Vettel’s car.

        Nor do I agree this is the same thing as a team order. And even if it was, it should be weighed against the fact Red Bull allowed both their drivers to fight for the title until the end that year, despite the fact they were up against another driver who was benefiting from team orders.

        1. @keithcollantine it is curious that the perception, for most of the people and even the media, is that Red Bull always benefited Vettel to the detriment of Webber, when the facts don’t backup this opinion. But even for F1 fanatics (not only in this site) most people will say that Red Bull always benefited Vettel and Webber was treated second. As I said it is curious and probably comes mostly from the accident in the 2010 Turkish GP when the team stood by Vettel and Webber public complaints.

          1. It’s because they did. One can make up excuses, but there were tons of little things where Webber would get less support. In strategies, car development direction, team orders, car mechanics, etc etc etc. The new front wing is one of the examples even though some more elaborate excuses are now being presented (made up).

            1. If it hadn’t been for MW’s radio comment…you know the one. And unless I’m mistaken, I thought, back when MW had a WDC shot, Horner had said, paraphrasing, ‘I can see Mark winning the Championship and then retiring on top, and then it will be Sebastien’s team.’

              I don’t think there was any conspiracy at play, but I do think there was a psychological edge for SV, and it happened that he was really at one with the car so they were never going to change it enough to take that away from him. I can’t say I blame them, as long as they were genuinely doing absolutely everything under the sun possible for MW at the same time. Were they? It just never suited MW as much, and certainly if HE was a designated first driver, they would not have let that uncomfortableness he had with the car happen for 3 years straight. Then again…see Ferrari…

              As I say, I really don’t think there is much to this, but at the same time there is, to me, enough in the two remarks I’ve referenced, such that there need be no wondering why people might think toward favouritism of some degree toward SV.

            2. Just wanted to add, equal equipment does not necessarily mean good news for both drivers. Driving the same car as the one that better suits one driver does not help the taxed driver. That said, it is undeniably fair in one sense. Yet, upon discovering this imbalance, the best case scenario is that the one driver’s car can be tweaked enough to suit both. I’m not sure MW’s could be, the Mercs can, and the most extreme example is MS/Ferrari where imho EI, RB, and FM drove the same car…MS’s.

        2. @keithcollantine it must be exhausting trying to talk sense to conspiracy theorists all the time. I applaud your efforts

    16. Personally I do not like team orders, but they are part of F1 (being a team sport).
      Therefore, I actually think that Red Bull should use team orders!

      Ricciardo is 60 points behind Hamilton, and there is a (very) slim chance he can bridge that. And a similar minute possibility to bridge the 57 to Rosberg. But no chance in hell to bridge both at the same time.

      However, Vettel is only 9 points behind Alonso, and a mere 2 ahead of Bottas. He should get all the support from his team to get to 4th on the final tally and lock out the ‘second row of the grid’.

    17. When it is Vettel benefitting from team orders: What are they doing!?
      When it is not Vettel and they don’t use team orders: What are they doing!?

    18. Hear that soft clunking noise? That’s the sound of Enzo’s sunnies touching the side of his coffin as he turns in his grave.
      Piero’s just frightened of coming ninth in both F1 & sportscars…

    19. Combine what Irvine says about racing in countries with no motorsport culture with the high ticket prices and you get Turkey, Korea, India…

      Its a credit to the longevity of European F1 fans that races like Hockenheim, Monza, Silverstone and Spa happen at all. Without us buying tickets, there’d be no-one taking a punt on £200 grandstand seat for a sport they casually fancy.

    20. Surely I’m not the only one to put together the fact that Minardi was bought by Red Bull (became Toro Rosso), who’s main team pioneered the modern implementation in 2010 and were generally thought to have gotten the most out of it?

    21. well as a Ferrari fan i am very looking forward seeing the scuderia back in the Le Mans, but understandably the team will be facing a dillema if they gonna do it, organization structurally and financially maybe too much demanding, but then i thought the cost of competing the WEC wouldn’t be too much bigger than the F1 operations, or is it ?

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