Tokens ‘keeping Honda from catching Ferrari’

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In the round-up: Honda’s Yusuke Hasegawa says they would be close to Ferrari’s level of performance if they could introduce all the upgrades they wanted to.

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Does who a driver knows matter more than how good they are?

I think it’s pretty clear now that a rookie driver needs to choose what team he or she wants to be associated with, at an very young age. Vandoorne, Verstappen, Wehrlein, Bianchi, Sainz, Kvyat, Magnussen etc… they all got got into, or were destined to get, a seat in at a top team.

The likes of Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean however are now overlooked. Somehow top teams don’t seem interested in them, even though they are much more experienced then the next exciting rookie.
Association seems now more important then experience.
@Me4me

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42 comments on “Tokens ‘keeping Honda from catching Ferrari’”

  1. I think, Honda, you’ll find that it’s bad design decisions and starting 4 years late that’s preventing you catching up with Ferrari and the others….

    1. @hairs After what they’ve achieved thus far… Do the Japanese have a recipe for humble pie?

      I believe in Honda but above all it is Ferrari who’s having a staggered start with their new, revised 2016 PU. Renault and Honda are smelling blood. I think Merc is still solid. Renault’s and Honda’s may be overconfident but I’m sure that those GPS figures are right which means soon McLaren will struggle to keep Honda exclusive.

    2. You are correct in your argument about them starting 4 years late was the problem, and that is why Honda is correct in blaming the Token system, because every year they can only do a set amount of improvement to try and catch up, while Mercedes and Ferrari and Renault are moving ahead of them at more or less the same pace.

      1. Why .entire Ferrari Merc have the best engine and everyone is being held back catching them by the token system. Until Ferrari fought and found a loophole how you started the season was how you finished. In 2014 whoever had the engine advantage had it right get fenced for a year and even now it is ring fenced somewhat. The lack of token’s from next year is a great decision and should be brought in with immediate effect, everyone are building engines outside the tokens right now ready for next year so no more eye is saved only the fans are not seeing everything the engine manufacturers have.

    3. sunny stivala
      20th May 2016, 18:10

      to catch FERRARI Honda themselves estimates they will need to spend the Equivalent of 40-50 tokens. Honda are most probably extracting as much HP as FERRARI from their “ICE” (power output), but it is not the HP you can get, it is the energy you can get from the fuel, the POWER UNIT with the highest efficiency wins, Honda cannot at the time make the power with full ER at same time. Honda using the same power output as FERRARI would most probably be 15-20kg of fuel short to finish the race. Honda update for Monaco and most probably Canada will only be all about fuel mapping, with performance tokens upgrade for SPA.

  2. Anyone know how many tokens they do/did have this year? Haven’t heard much talk about the tokens.

    Regardless, I can’t make much sense of Honda’s argument. Too many upgrades available? Surely you’d just pick the best one and go with it… Sounds like ready-made excuses to explain the poor performance.

    1. Everyone had 32, I believe. The Black Box rules (i.e. frozen parts) were also removed.

      Next year, the tokens are scrapped.

    2. Teams look for improvements for their entire engine ecosystem, be it, electronic/mechanical/chemical. It’s probably not just a matter of just bolting on the best solutions and hitting the track. Solutions, have to be tested on the track for viability. It seems Honda doesn’t want to continue upgrading without being upgraded. lol

      Heh, not making excuses for Honda. It is their own fault things are the way they are.

      1. Bummer hit post before I was done. :(

        Also, yes, if your engine ecosystem was that far behind other top competitors, it’d be possible to have too many upgrades.

    3. I thought there’s plenty of leeway for the FIA to nod through pretty much anything on grounds of reliability, fuel consumption or cost? I know there’s an engine approval group but they’re all keen on convergence. It was Merc, Renault and Ferrari who were making use of the leeway, Charlie was complaining, while I got the impression Honda simply haven’t asked.

    4. I don’t see this comment as an excuse from Honda. They have too many upgrades in the pipe to introduce this year. Remember the old days when you could build a completely new engine during the year if you could accord it. This is no longer the case.
      Honda got it wrong, now they are working to catchup. That should be cheered. Then when they fail make fun of them all you want.
      As a McLaren fan, I prefer to be optimistic when it comes to Honda progress: they’ll eventually come up with a decent engine.

      1. Was that a Honda pun? If you could ‘accord’ it? Tee hee.

        1. Andy (@andybantam)
          20th May 2016, 18:33

          @robbie

          May your fine pun serve as a prelude to whole list of Honda based puns. You’re a legend.

          1. Lol…just doing my civic duty.

        2. Nice one!
          I meant afford, damn phone auto correct.
          @robbie

  3. Memo to Honda: It’s not the tokens holding you back. It’s simply you. The great glory days of dominance from the past are gone and they will never come back for you. Remember the last time you came back to F1: British American Racing, the horrid Earth scene livery. A return to F1 was bad then and it’s bad now as the sports moves to new specs. Much like the present butt-kicking you’re getting in the American IndyCar racing, you’re playing catch-up to others. Save your money and dump McLaren and F1. You can still sell cars on Monday.

  4. I’d love to try whatever Yusuke Hasegawa is smoking!

  5. The likes of Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean however are now overlooked. Somehow top teams don’t seem interested in them, even though they are much more experienced then the next exciting rookie.

    That’s because Perez, Hulkenberg and Grosjean are the Trulli, Fisichella and Heidfeld of this generation.

    Well actually, I don’t even think they are as good as them.

    1. A grave insult to Heidfeld… I still don’t know why he was never elevated… I still think he was easily as good as Rosberg, Button…

      1. to Alex W – Heidfeld was worse than rookie-Kubica. Is that enough?

        1. Heidfeld was worse than rookie-Kubica.

          No idea what you’re talking about. Kubica debuted in 2006 and surpassed Heidfeld in 2008. On what planet was he a “rookie” by that point?

          1. @kingshark, as you say, Kubica had participated in race weekends in 2006 (in 2006, smaller teams were allowed additional track time – BMW Sauber were given that allowance, most of which was given to Kubica), before being given a race seat towards the tail end of the 2006 season.

            He wasn’t exactly an inexperienced rookie by 2008, and given that Kubica was being hailed as a great future talent (we know that Ferrari were desperate to sign him in 2009, but BMW absolutely refused to agree to a deal even after they’d announced they were leaving the sport), Heidfeld did still stack up fairly well against him (he beat him in both 2007 and 2009).

    2. As harsh as it may sound, it’s probably true. At least Perez and Hulkenberg seem like they are the Trulli and Fisichella of this generation. Fisi and Trulli showed a lot of promise earlier in their careers, but they never developed in to anything phenomenal, similar to the Hulk and Perez.

      Heidfeld though, I thought, never got the top drive to really prove his mettle, similar to the position Grosjean finds himself in now.

      1. @todfod

        Trulli showed a lot of promise earlier in his career… Heidfeld though, I thought, never got the top drive to really prove his mettle

        What you said about Heidfeld can also be said about Trulli. He too never had a chance to drive for a top team. The closest he ever got to a top team was Renault in 2003-04, and he did a very respectable job against Alonso, but he never got an opportunity in actual WDC winning machinery. Heidfeld was basically just as good as Kubica at BMW, but for some reason doesn’t get anywhere near as much praise. I thought his 2007 season especially was excellent.

        In my opinion, Heidfeld and Trulli are two of the most underrated drivers in the last 20 years.

        As for Fisichella, he was fantastic early in his career. He did some absolutely phenomenal things with Benetton and Jordan from 1997-2003. He got lots of podiums and even a win in these midfield cars. Ultimately, Fisi’s greatest demise was his inability to handle great pressure, IMO.

    3. MG421982 (@)
      20th May 2016, 5:34

      We should keep an eye on Bottas, I kinda see him getting closer and closer to this pack. Perez had a top drive in his hands once – McLaren – but things went backwards for him. Could happen to him too. Or will Kimi put a good word for him at Ferrari?!?! Dunno why, but I don’t see him getting a seat at Mercedes or RBR… ever.

      1. @corrado-dub, the thing is, Red Bull is effectively shut to outsiders – the way that their junior driver scheme is structured is with the promise of a potential seat at their works team as the ultimate prize. Take away the possibility of that seat by recruiting drivers outside of that, and you effectively undermine their entire young driver scheme altogether.

        Similarly, it looks like Mercedes are preparing to go down a similar route with their young driver scheme too, partnering with Manor to train up Wehrlein and with Ocon waiting in the wings too. The team might be open on paper, but it might not remain that way in the longer term if Mercedes go down the same route that Red Bull have.

        As for Perez, to a certain extent being kicked out of McLaren might have proven to be a blessing in disguise. The team didn’t really seem to know how to support his development and didn’t really put in much effort in that regard, and it seems that his signing effectively became intertwined with the internal politics of the team – i.e. Ron Dennis wanted Perez out because Perez had been signed by Whitmarsh, and he symbolically wanted to clear out those associated with him. I don’t think that he’d have enjoyed the atmosphere of the team if he had stayed, and to be honest Force India have been the more competitive team as of late due to Honda’s problems in recent years.

        1. @anon It’s not really, though. Verstappen wasn’t a Red Bull junior, they made him one to get him into F1. It’s no coincidence he was announced at Toro Rosso a week after becoming a Red Bull junior. It’s a farce in that sense, the Red Bull driver programme, because he leapfrogged all their ‘real’ juniors. He was simply too good to miss out on, but what it does show is it is possible for a driver from outside Red Bull to get a drive at Red Bull.

          1. @hahostolze: I understand and agree with your points about Verstappen, but I think that the point stands about RBR being closed to experienced drivers: youngsters can still aspire to be the next Verstappen and jump the queue, but they still have to start at the back of the queue at least nominally. The likes of Bottas, Perez and Hülkenberg who have already driven in F1 have no chance.

        2. If Red Bull is effectively shut to outsiders, how did Verstappen get in?

      2. @corrado-dub Bottas? If I had to pick one of the four drivers above it would be in this order: Hulkenberg , then Perez, then Grosjean and only then Bottas.

        1. @corrado-dub @xtwl
          Bottas seems to be the new Heidfeld: a safe pair of hands but not WDC material.
          I’m now a bit disapointed by Hülkenberg as I don’t see Perez as WDC material either. I hope Grosjean gets to Ferrari or a revitalised Renault. He is now consistent, pushes his team to do better (hence his radio outbursts) and he manages well his agression to attack when needed and hold position when there is only points to loose.

      3. I can’t see Raikkonen doing that! And Ferrari can see for themselves there is little to choose between Bottas and Massa, the man they dropped three years ago.

        Raikkonen is doing a better job than Vettel so far this season, his best since he returned to Ferrari by far. If he wants to stay next season, I think Ferrari would be happy to sign another extension.

        If he decides not to, then Grosjean is probably a candidate, maybe Button if he leaves McLaren and as an outsider Sainz if he continues to impress.

  6. It’s pretty sad when everyone knows how terribly corrupt F1 is, yet aren’t able to do anything about it because of corporate interests. Kind of like when you and your friends used to know that WWF wrestling was fake when you were 10 years old, but you left it unspoken to let a bit of the fantasy remain, worrying that if anyone said anything, it would all fall apart. Oh well. Looks like F1 might bring a good old American spanking upon themselves. But if you’re going to act like children….

    1. @uneedafinn2win cool, thanks for sharing. it’s a useful addition to the stuff mark hughes has been writing about on motorsportmagazine wesbite.

  7. Translation: “I just received the quotation from Dallara and they want $25 million to design and engineer a 2017-spec chassis!”

  8. The tokens may not be helping Honda but even within the token system there is a decent amount of room to make big improvements.

    The biggest issue for Honda is that they ultimately started off with a design that wasn’t what it should have been & they have taken far longer than they should have to even figure out what they need to do to improve it. Yes the token system hasn’t helped matters but even within the confined of the token system they haven’t made the sort of improvements you would expect them to have.

    It actually mimics what happened the last time Honda were in F1 with the V8’s. There V8 engine was down on power, unreliable, Not as drivable & less fuel efficient than others & those problems were things they never figured out before they withdrew at the end of 2008.

    1. It actually mimics what happened the last time Honda were in F1 with the V8’s. There V8 engine was down on power, unreliable, Not as drivable & less fuel efficient than others & those problems were things they never figured out before they withdrew at the end of 2008.

      @gt-racer

      Exactly what I thought as well. When Mclaren switched to Honda power for 2015, everyone was reminiscent of the late 80s where Honda had a class of the field engine, and Mclaren was on top of their game. But 20 years later, throughout the 2000s, Honda was probably the weakest engine around. It wasn’t as powerful, efficient or reliable as compared to the Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault engines.

      Honestly, the performance gap between the different engines was really slim between Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, and each of them had their respective strengths on either power, fuel efficiency and driveability. Honda however, lacked on all fronts. Luckily for Honda, Formula 1 wasn’t as much of an ‘engine formula’ then, as it is now, or else they would have been the laughing stock of the paddock through the 2000s as well.

      It’s sad for Mclaren. Because even with unlimited tokens and resources, Honda will just never be as good as the other 3 engine manufacturers, and I think that there is no way Mclaren can land a championship with Honda as their partner.

  9. Could Honda not just sacrifice a race weekend doing all the changes they want in one go and take the 60-70 place grid penalties?

    1. @emu55 No, because the token limit is absolute, it’s not about penalties. They can’t take part without a homologated engine and can’t homologate an engine which differs by more than the permitted tokens from the existing homologated design.

  10. OMG!!! How many more excuses are they gonna use?

    1. The real excuses are going to start next year, when they have unlimited tokens for development and still find their engine going up in smoke while being lapped by the front runners.

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