In the round-up: Formula One’s future engine rules will be confirmed by the end of the month.
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Motor-Praesentation am 31. Oktober (Auto Motor und Sport - German)
"The engine rules will be announced on October 31st and plans for cost reductions and a budget cap will follow a week later."
Marko takes aim at Massa: 'He should retire!' (F1i)
"It cannot be that when the leaders approach you only move over after so many corners. Without the episode we would have had an exciting end. It would be better if Massa retires."
Ferrari paid price for ignoring quality control - Marchionne (Motorsport)
"We must renew our commitment regarding the quality of the components coming to F1. It's a problem we've probably ignored over time because it was never of much importance."
Horner explains Red Bull race gains (Racer)
"While Horner admits the contrast in pace from Saturday to Sunday was 'a big difference,' he says Mercedes and Ferrari are unable to run qualifying modes in race situations. 'We ran in the same modes in the race that we do in qualifying,' Horner said."
Renault/Toro Rosso changes could help Haas (Autosport)
"I hope it helps. It could because Sainz is a good driver and he scored almost all of Toro Rosso's points. It's not a disadvantage for us."
Ferrari may have reached their limit, says Mercedes chief Toto Wolff (The Telegraph)
"When you’re pushing the boundaries you will eventually reach (your) limits. Ferrari’s development from 2016 to 2017 was exceptional and probably this is a ‘development’ phase."
Vettel: 'I don't need to be a genius' to know F1 title chances after Suzuka DNF (Crash)
"What we have to do now is like I said to the guys, let’s get back and get some rest as it has been a tough, tough weeks with a lot of changes and the mechanics are tired, the team is tired I think so it is good to get some rest."
"After the race, there was no time for sentimental goodbyes for Carlos as the team was rushing to the airport for the long flight home to Italy. But Spanish TV did pop into our hospitality to present Sainz with a 'French For Dummies' book to help him communicate with his new team members!"
We've got to put up with Hamilton's irritating foibles when he drives like a god (Evening Standard)
"Hamilton stands on the brink of a truly excellent world championship victory and for that he deserves nothing less than warm plaudits and a truckload of respect."
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Notable posts from Twitter, Instagram and more:
We had a very special guest at Grove yesterday. Thank you for visiting us Professor Stephen Hawking, it was our pleasure to show you around. pic.twitter.com/Tkf29XApRT
— WILLIAMS RACING (@WilliamsRacing) October 10, 2017
Listen guys,if you are expecting instant revolution with Ross Brawn forget it. It will be researched, methodical, planned. It will be right.
— Byron Young (@byronf1) October 10, 2017
Interesting rumours about a Dutch GP on a street circuit. Huge following for Max, a race-mad country & some of the best cities in the world!
— Will Ponissi (@WillPonissi) October 10, 2017
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Comment of the day
Germany isn’t short of successful F1 drivers or teams, so why has its race struggled to attract a crowd recently?
It is not in doubt that in Germany there was a big decline in popularity after Schumacher first retired in 2006. A young German boy in a Red Bull winning championship after championship and Schumacher´s comeback in a Mercedes helped slow this trend down a bit but generally speaking the German public is tired of F1.
German people complain a lot about ticket prices. That is why German fathers rather take their kids to football matches than to the Hockenheimring.
Liberty Media is going in the right direction, especially with their increased social media activities aiming younger audiences. The show must be improved in order to attract new people to F1.
Schumacher Junior could boost things up if he will be able to compete.
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122 comments on “New F1 engine rules to be announced this month”
11th October 2017, 0:10
How do you solve F1’s engine problems? How do you keep it road-relevant enough to keep manufacturers interested, but approachable enough for newcomers to join?
Eliminating turbocharging (noise, complexity) and opening up KERS development seems like a good route, but I’m no engineer. It doesnt get less complex from here unless you remove one component. Just spitballing — I like the idea of having interchangeable KERS units, so you have ICE supplier such as Ferrari and a KERS supplier such as BOSCH and constructors can sort of mix and match. …But you’d still have Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault doing their own KERS + ICE, and the inherent packaging and drivability advantages of a bespoke combination would be insurmountable by other teams. But Ross Brawn is smarter than me, so let’s see what happens.
11th October 2017, 0:47
As far as I can see, looking four years down the road the only way to be relevant is making them more electric.
The problem is they want to be relevant, and the pinnacle of technology, while pleasing fans with combustion and noise. They are two complete opposites. At some point F1 will need to decide whether it remains ‘the pinnacle’ or if it remains ‘pure’ (that is to say, roughly how it has been since it began). It can’t be both. But once electric cars become big, what’s next is autonomous cars. So whether F1 cars stop being the pinnacle now or later, it will have to at some point.
F1 has historically been technologically advanced due to its presence on TV and in the media, which before the Internet became widespread, meant that F1 was a perfect showcase. Now all you need is a tweet and a video for large audiences to understand the advanced technology you have created. Furthermore, almost everything can be designed on a computer and simulated now, whereas years ago the best thing was to build it and test it, which F1 was sometimes suitable for. F1 has no longer got any reason to be road relevant, even for supercars.
With the inventions of traction control, ABS, launch control, computer controlled suspension, and all the other driving aids which are banned in F1 (including active aerodynamics, barring a manually activated two-position rear wing), I believe F1 is already well in the direction of staying ‘pure’ and pleasing fans. Personally I’m more nostalgic and I believe this is the right way for them to go.
They can still lead revolutionary technology in materials used (what’s next after carbon fibre?) and other departments such as live communication and television (or internet?) broadcasts.
12th October 2017, 4:33
IMO keep F1 the pinnacle of motorsport using solutions that represent a balance between the show and Car industry relevance for as long as combustion engines continue to be the main driver of the world’s cars. Then, when the time comes for the fossil fuels to stop being used, completely embrace FE and make it expand the industry technology boundaries, while keeping F1 at the pinnacle of speed as a “classic” fossil fuel energy competition without the weight of pushing the new electric technology and free to revisit the more appealing and visceral multi-cylinder petrol engines.
12th October 2017, 9:56
Yes and if we were having this conversation 20 years ago and if manufacturers had been in f1 like they are now they would have been screeeaming (sic) for Diesels. So just before you jump into the love in that is the electric future. A word of caution.
11th October 2017, 1:17
Unfortunately, I think the days of naturally aspirated engines in F1 are over.
11th October 2017, 3:01
what is the problem with being more electric. The one thing manufacturers have not solved is to keep a battery charged and never needing to recharge. Hybrids drive on battery only up to a certain speed (i hope i’m correct).
Electric cars drive all battery but can not drive as far. So the goal should be to find a way to keep a battery going non stop, keeping it cool without some major contraptions but also making it produce a ton of energy.
So, for me the direction should
maybe go 50% ICE and a 50% self charging, high output battery/KERS. It used to be 600-700hp and 120-175hp from battery.
500hp ICE and 500hp battery/KERS.
You still have noise from ICE but also get some road relevance Because nobody will want to recharge their car every single day and wait for it to happen.
11th October 2017, 7:55
@us-brian, probably because the current fan base is skewed towards those who were watching F1 in the 1990’s, and because this isn’t the sort of technology that was around then, they don’t want it to come in now.
11th October 2017, 10:32
Here’s a proposal from someone who watched F1 in the 1990’s (and the 1980’s).
-Drive the wheels by electric motor(s) only. Of course there’s kinectic energy recovery.
-Motors are fed by a small battery pack.
-A fossil fuel engine (this could be a 1.6 turbo) is used as range extender, only charging the batteries and never driving the wheels directly.
-Maximise fuel amount and fuel flow.
-Since the engine is only charging the batteries, is pretty much a conventional, stand alone device. Anyone can build it. With or without ‘heat’ recovery, whatever you like/need. The electric components can come from a different munufacturer.
-Getting the F1 engineers involved in battery and quick-charging technology seems exciting to me. The high pressure, high performence environment of F1 may accelerate devolpments in this area.
-“Future-proof” drive line, see next. Also very road relevant, as more and more governments are planning bans on fossil fuel engines in the not too distant future.
-Trick differentials can be replaced by 2 electric motors, each driving 1 rear wheel. No need for advanced gearboxes. There’s an immediate cost reduction.
-You can gradually decrease the fuel amount (and flow) year-on-year, and increase the battery pack to advert/promote the shift to fully electric drivelines.
-At some point the battery pack will be big enough to do qualifying runs on battery-only (without starting the fossil fuel engine). Then you need a quick-charging solution between runs, something the entire world may benefit from.
-At some point the fossil fuel engine might replaced by a hydrogen fuel cell or go battery-only, whatever the future may bring.
-We don’t need to look only at the companies-of-the-past (like Cosworth) for customer drive-line solutions. Many start-ups and companies from other fields can become F1 suppliers.
-And so on…
Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
11th October 2017, 13:54
So long this came with changes to the aerodynamics to allow close genuine racing (to make up for the complete loss of sound), I’m all for it.
11th October 2017, 14:29
@ Leo B nails it. Great post.
This is the only future for F1. Bring it on! I guess since the engine is just generating electrical power various options are possible, turbine etc.
I wonder though if this isn’t very close to Formula E’s roadmap. I think eventually there won’t be room for both series. Merger is inevitable.
I’ve been following F1 for a long time and miss the head splitting noise trackside. But I accept that those days are over.
11th October 2017, 15:47
Isn’t Leo’s suggestion just an F1 version of “Geoff” (the electric car created by old new Top Gear)?
John H (@john-h)
11th October 2017, 17:48
This one could be called… Er… Keith??
11th October 2017, 19:30
Leo B Please go ruin formulaE instead… that sounds TERRIBLE, not a single line item in your plan sounds desirable.
11th October 2017, 16:59
@us-brian The problem with being more electric is that we dont wanna see the F1 cars going around the track at road relevant speeds and sound levels.
12th October 2017, 10:07
Yes there was and the 80s and 70s etc . They called them milk floats. Electric is old tech.
its ‘faster horses’ : Henry Ford
11th October 2017, 3:32
All they need to do is make them run one engine mode for qual and race and many of these problems with the current engine regs will be solved.
11th October 2017, 11:36
11th October 2017, 14:23
Stick to cartography.
11th October 2017, 8:32
There is hardly a new road-car engine nowadays without a turbo!
And those without typically make even less noise (i.e. electric cars).
I do understand that people want the noise back (I fondly recall the deafening noise some years ago when cars started up at Albert Park), but I think those times are gone (unless we get electronically created crowd-pleaser-sounds).
Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
11th October 2017, 13:56
If you want noise, go check out Top Fuel Dragsters. That is utterly visceral. Especially at night when you can see the 6-10ft flames shooting from the exhaust.
11th October 2017, 23:08
Or Monster Trucks. Plenty of action too
Incontinent Boxing Tortoise Hero
11th October 2017, 10:29
I’m not so sure road relevance needs to be such a big thing any more. The future of road cars is electric, and Formula E takes care of that. I don’t really care about the noise thing – I for one have enjoyed being able to hear squealing tyres and the approval of the crowd for the first time in about 30 years. I’m all in favour of F1 being the height of racing technology, but if that means nobody wants to make engines for it, a balance will have to be struck somewhere.
On the other hand, if an engine supply costs say 25m, and the budget of the least well off teams is around the 100m mark – is spending a quarter of your budget on a year’s worth of engines and ancillaries really so unreasonable? Would bringing the cost down to 5m really make any difference? They’ll all just spend the saved money elsewhere, and the have-nots will still be in perilous financial situations.
Should a team that can’t keep it together be assisted to remain in F1? We may miss the presence of names like (the real) Lotus, Minardi, Tyrrell, Arrows and all the others that have disappeared over the years, but do we really want to resurrect the likes of Pacific GP, Andrea Moda and Maki too?
11th October 2017, 10:37
Turbocharging is staying, this features on the vast majority of road-cars now, the issue has been around the MGU-H, heat recovery system. If this is dropped and twin turbo-charging included that reduces the cost and complexity barrier significantly for other parties to be interested (Cosworth lead consortium with non-manufacturer teams). The MGU-H also deadens the sound, I have been lucky enough to see and hear the Renault RS01 this year at Silverstone and Goodwood and it sounded great. Optimistic for the new regulations.
11th October 2017, 12:50
I know this would kill the budget problems, but if you want to keep it relevant and the pinnacle of technology, don’t define the solution in the regulations. Open it up for the engineers to get creative. Make the regulation nothing more than a limit on the amount/type of fuel allowed, the size/capacity of the electric batteries, and the number or race weekends that it has to last. Who knows what different solutions we’d see then, some of which could work their way into regular cars over time.
11th October 2017, 0:11
I can’t read that article until I get chance to translate it, but man am I expecting 31 October to be a very disappointing day
11th October 2017, 0:48
It basically says it will be cheaper, simpler, noisier and achievable for private engine developers. It won’t be a V12 (like RBR was wishing for), but neither will it be space technology (which Merc, Renault and Porsche were hoping for). It is looking to be another V6 with two electric motors and many shared components producing more than 1000 hp. 4wd hybrid technology (like Le Mans) won’t be part of it to save costs and weight.
The article further describes the aim of aerodynamic influences being reduced and improved faster decision making processes top down with less team input and more lead by Ross Brawns team.
11th October 2017, 2:02
Sounds reasonable, I think I can live with it even though I hate the idea of standartized parts. Not changing rules to much to avoid the possible (and almost inevitable) domination of one team/manufacturer, while making the entry threshold lower. And keeping the most of amazing technology in!
I really hope this works and new teams enter, both privateers and manifacturers.
13th October 2017, 6:31
Looks pretty solid to me after reading it really. They are working on changing the approach to how to make the rules – presenting their proposal and then inviting teams (and presumably the FIA) to ask for changes, but those have to be motivated and explained.
They will not have a round with people who largely don’t understand the technical stuff but do get the politics in desicion making to vote on things anymore. It will be based on solid proposals and arguments.
As for the engines, the most important thing is that the rules should be more thought through. And yeah, the engines will be somewhat simpler to enable more companies to make them and end up with not that crazily expensive units. Also the approach to budget capping – gradually, with a “caretaker” installed at each team to keep a check on things – feels like one thought up by a person who knows how to avoid outside inspections.
11th October 2017, 0:16
Sometimes, when Horner gives an statement, I am confused as to who he thinks he is speaking to… does he want to get a message across to Renault, to the FIA?
In any case, I was glad when I heard Rosberg basically tell him to cut the BS on the Sky broadcast.
11th October 2017, 0:37
Regarding LHs irritating behaviour, really ? OK, he wears questionable fashion, seems to prefer life in the US to the UK, likes a bit of bling and has all the toys needed to make nearly all teenaged boys and many older men green with envy, but if that irritates you maybe the fault is yours not LHs.
11th October 2017, 0:48
Who the Hunt does he think he is enjoying his personal life.. ;)
11th October 2017, 1:04
George Harrison made a really interesting observation once. He said that around The Beatles, people forgot how to ‘act normal’. There seems to be a similar thing around Hamilton for some reason. He is a whole lot less ‘off the rails’ than most people would be in his situation, and yet the flak never really seems to end. It is rather bewildering.
11th October 2017, 2:25
As far as race weekend he really isn’t different from the other drivers. He praises his team sometimes, sometimes gets angry…
Funny Rolex is a banner sponsor. I can’t remember the last time somebody objected to a Rolex, or derided it as bling. But is it different than big diamond studs? Nah, not really. They are both prestige fasion items Just the identity associated with them is different.
As to jetting around? He seems to be happy, or at least in the right mind to drive.
His public positions don’t seem inherently hateful or otherwise out of bounds.
What’s the big deal?
11th October 2017, 2:31
Maybe they meant behavior like getting in a snit and posting telemetry on Twitter. The motor sports magazines I read are British and all have taken him to task over the years for his demeanor when things aren’t going well for him. F1 Magazine had a cover story on him headlined “Why It Is Wrong to Hate This Man.” The negative reactions to him can’t all be based on jealousy.
11th October 2017, 8:19
A single slip 5 years ago during the midst of a stressful title battle that McLaren threw away with reliability and amateurish operational problems.
Hardly dams him as a person.
The moments when Hamilton does let his frustrations through aren’t unique amongst any competitive driver other than perhaps Bottas.
11th October 2017, 8:49
The right-wing press has a massive hang-up with Hamilton. He recently appeared on the Graham Norton show with Mel Brooks (it’s probably on youtube now), the next day the lots of the papers reported that Mel Brooks had punched him and the Telegraph stated: “He should stay away from Talk Shows and stick to what he’s good at”. But if you search for “Lewis Hamilton Graham Norton” on youtube you can see that he’s terrific on these shows, bantering with the other guests and having fun.
I find the attitude of sections of the public/press towards him very weird, they just seem really angry that he refuses to conform to their narrow sense of ‘proper’ behaviour. It’s little wonder he likes the US so much.
11th October 2017, 9:11
Sorry to be picky, but it was the Jonathon Ross show!
11th October 2017, 9:45
@nemo87 You’re right! Well, he’s great on Graham Norton too! I only watch these programmes if I see that an F1 driver is on.
Incontinent Boxing Tortoise Hero
11th October 2017, 10:41
Now why would right-wingers possibly have a problem with a chap like Lewis sending out a message to those who look up to him that you can achieve anything if you strive hard enough for it, that you shouldn’t let traditional social barriers and other people’s preconceptions stand in your way and that you can be successful? I can’t understand it.
11th October 2017, 21:31
I suppose I’m right wing and Lewis is my favourite driver. So…..
11th October 2017, 9:25
I’ll be a Lewis’ fan only once he’ll wear the prancing horse. However, I really think that as long as he’s able to be this focused and strong on track he can walk around with a parrot on his shoulder if he likes. Lifestyle can be questioned only if it interferes with performance: ok, he looks more like a rapper than a driver but he’s polite, well mannered and most importantly he’s fast and rarely makes mistakes.
11th October 2017, 10:52
@m-bagattini Having grown up following Hill, Button and Hamilton, I’ve always considered Ferrari as the “enemy” to me (in the most respectful, sporting way possible!!) but part of me would love for Lewis to end up at Ferrari at some point, so I know what it’s like to root for the prancing horses. Okay, in terms of strategy and reliability they might infuriate their fans from time to time but it can’t get much worse than Lewis’ McLaren days (namely 2012), surely??
11th October 2017, 11:54
@ninjenius when it’s 10 years in a row, trust me, it gets a lot more infuriating
11th October 2017, 11:02
It is because he is black. This is the hidden subliminal and unconscious racism that abounds today. A black person is more annoying when they do annoying things. They are simply held to a different and harsher standards than Caucasians. And before this is derided and rejected out of hand, it is most most black people experience.
And if anyone wants to claim that the first black driver in F1 has never be subjected to subliminal racism at any point in his career in a predominantly white sport, you need to get our head out of the sand more often.
And of course, Lewis is BLACK – no matter the attempts to claim isn’t because he is “mixed race”
Point is, until someone can reasonably explain why Lewis gets more flak than others who do the same, or even worse, this is the best explanation – no matter how “unreasonable” it seems.
Let us look at some of the reasons given:
– He wears “bling”
– He has questionable fashion sense
– He hangs out with celebs
– He is a demanding diva
– He lives a jet set lifestyle
– He makes (some)music
– He tweeted telemetry
– He throws his team under the bus frequently
– He lied to the stewards almost 10 years ago (when his team told him to)
– He was beaten by Button (over 3 years) – well, this one is quite laughable.
*Please add more as you see fit.
Now tell me, is ANY of this enough (on their own or together) to hate someone so much? Or polarize opinion so vehemently? To subject to constant criticism – NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO?
I shall be waiting.
11th October 2017, 11:48
Add to the list:
– Says this crowd is amazing
– Is always at fault for collisions
– Needs his team mate to move out of the way
I totally get the point you’re making, it’s very odd he attracts so much negativity.
F Truth (@)
11th October 2017, 12:55
@kbdavies well said. Unfortunately a similar discussion calling it what is is was recently removed on here and I get that it’s an uneasy subject that we don’t want to devolve into a motorsport.com comments section but the double standards held to Lewis are outrageous.
Furthermore and even on here, you get some commenters spewing the most vile hatred which is clearly irrational and based upon more than ‘liegate’ or ‘telemetry gate’ – it’s clear.
The fact of the matter is, Lewis is an amazing racing driver, a philanthropist, cares more for the fans at the circuit getting their money’s worth than most drivers and perhaps most rarely in modern F1, A CHARACTER. F1 will be a poorer place when he hangs up his helmet.
11th October 2017, 15:02
@kbdavies I’m sure I must be missing something from the British media, which would be understandable as I’m here in Canada, but I do not see whatsoever where colour comes into it other than on the fringe by truly prejudice people. ‘Hate someone so much’…’polarize opinion so vehemently’…’It is because he is black’…
And from @offdutyrockstar ‘spewing the most vile hatred…’
Really? I think the tone of your comments is what is really outrageous and fails to acknowledge that if there is such vileness toward LH it is by the vast vast minority of people, who can’t substantiate their claims with anything other than pure prejudice.
I think for the vast majority of F1 followers, they may pick LH apart for his ‘foibles’ but that’s much more so because he is beating their favourite driver, and that’s frustrating to them. Just look at the much worse rhetoric toward SV this year and tell me colour has anything to do with it.
Let me set the record straight for myself as I am ‘famously’ anti-LH around here. With respect to colour let me just say as a WASP having grown up in northern Ontario, I miss Prince so so much as a huge fan, having first seen him on his Purple Rain tour, and am currently loving Kendrick Lamar and Chance the Rapper. Can’t stand Kanye West.
When LH was first made known to me as a young up and comer under Mac’s wing I thought…cool. It was really not until he said in 2011 that he let off-track distractions cost him on the track that I thought that was terrible for the team and the sponsors to hear, who had spent hundreds of millions on him to pay him a fortune and offer him the equipment to do what he loves and get rich and famous doing so. I still believe that was the beginning of the end for him at Mac. When he left Mac and signed with Merc I could just feel it through and through that Brawn’s opinion at the time…’as a driver you want to be with a manufacturer based team for the new era’…rang true, and my comments around here defended LH for making the right decision, when many said he should stay at Mac. I thought it was time LH leave the nest and the baggage behind, and I thought it was exactly the right move.
My real issue with LH really came from his sense of entitlement after sealing up the WDC in the US in 2015. It went to his head, and of course last year with his constantly throwing the team under the bus was a pure example of that entitlement and for me a complete turnoff. This year has only been different because he has not been challenged nearly in the same way within the team of course, and by SV only on the track occasionally, and with nowhere near any of the psychological stuff that was going on between him and Nico. This season has been a relative cakewalk for LH, or else he wouldn’t be sounding ‘more focused’ or ‘more mature’ or ‘ more at peace’ than he has been.
I’m absolutely fine with LH winning this year’s WDC, lol like we have any say in it, and it is just too bad it has been so anticlimactic, but that’s racing for you. I just don’t like LH’s underlying attitude so I’m not a fan. And… ‘driving like a god?’ Sorry but no, that’s not true either. He’s driving the WCC winning car, as almost all WDC’s need, with much less challenge than his other two WDCs at Mercedes.
I’ve had almost nothing to complain about with his driving other than him doing things to Nico like driving him wide and off the track and claiming understeer, expecting that we would pity him for that when in fact that was a result of him over cooking the corner. Relatively little things like that. LH is an absolute angel on the track compared to the likes of MS who was truly a polarizing character but much more to do with on-track behaviour than off-track. I couldn’t care less what colour of skin LH has, nor what he does in his personal life except when it has taken away from all that so many people provide him in F1, and I can’t get behind his general attitude, and I acknowledge his talent behind the wheel.
Michael Brown (@)
11th October 2017, 17:43
@robbie It’s easier to call you a racist than consider your views on his actions, dating back to 2 years ago at most, way more recent than what @kbdavies provided.
11th October 2017, 20:22
@robbie, I find it interesting that you did not invoke a similar comment about Vettel having the WCC winning car in the earlier parts of this season when it was Vettel who was leading the WDC and Ferrari were leading the WCC.
Equally, with regards to your comment about him driving the WCC winning car, is the W08 is actually the best car, or is it a case of Ferrari’s drivers sometimes letting down the team and recent reliability problems skewing the results?
After all, Kimi has been facing repeated criticism for multiple years for underperforming quite badly against his team mates, and when you look at his statistics when compared to the other drivers in the top half of the grid, he is one of the poorer drivers. When you compare the relative points hauls of those drivers to their team mates, only Verstappen ranks lower (and then only barely so) – and that is mainly due to Verstappen’s unusually high retirement rate this season.
Kimi has, for a number of reasons, been failing to score as many points as you would expect him to when you compare him to, say, Bottas, or even to what Kimi was able to achieve back in 2016. If Kimi had been managing to do as well as Bottas has been relative to Hamilton then, if you were to go back to the Italian GP – before the recent reliability problems and crashes threw the results askew – you would have expected Kimi to be on closer to 190 points and Ferrari on closer to 420 points (i.e. you would have expected them to be close to level on points with Mercedes).
Even recently, the large gap in the points table is mainly because Ferrari and their drivers have thrown away a lot of points – even if you went fairly conservative and said that Ferrari could have picked up just 3rd and 4th place in recent races, that’s still at least 80 points they’d have lost out on (and, in reality, they probably could have expected to score more whilst simultaneously cutting the number of points that Mercedes could have scored).
11th October 2017, 23:32
@anon Fair comment. I wasn’t highlighting SV and Ferrari because that wasn’t really the focus of the discussion, and earlier in the season when they led the WCC and WDC, those results were nowhere near guaranteed to be how it would end up, with so much season to go. Safe to say now Mercedes has locked up both Championships.
Of course you are right that some of Ferrari’s lagging numbers in the WCC is down to KR’s ‘laggard’ performance, but Bottas has had his struggles and concern over that has been expressed by TW. So VB, after a great start, has become a bit of a ‘laggard’ there too.
I take results at the end of the season as he one’s to go by. And Mercedes will have by quite a margin the WCC. Even if SV rallies for some wins, that won’t be enough because LH is going to get serious points too. Mercedes will have the WCC by quite a large margin, I predict. Average things out and the WDC always has the WCC car, or a very close second. This years Ferrari will not end up being a close second, but a distant one. So while it may be true that at times SV has been a concern for LH, and LH’s car has been a diva, averaged out over all 4 drivers at Mercedes and Ferrari over the whole season, the Mercedes will be hands down the overall best car.
F Truth (@)
12th October 2017, 9:32
@robbie I wasnt referring to you.
I was referring to the chap in the article relating to Lewis equalling Schumacher’s records by 2020 at the current rate who said that he would rather shoot himself than see that happen amongst other unsavoury comments. That thread was removed.
F Truth (@)
12th October 2017, 9:39
The rhetoric aimed at SV is 9/10 for his driving.
The rhetoric aimed at Lewis is at LEAST 50% aimed at his fashion sense, his accent, who he associates with, what he does in his spare time, his tattoos, the fact he ‘looks like a rapper’ etc.
You cannot say Seb received anywhere near the amount of cultural objection that Lewis does.
Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
11th October 2017, 13:55
Very good comment indeed @kbdavies. I’ve thought for a long time people’s issues with Lewis is cultural taste. Let’s face it this is a white middle/upper class sport.
11th October 2017, 14:58
Being the best always attracts love & hate, people will just make up their own reasons to pick either of the options. There is no science behind it (or maybe there is).
Michael Brown (@)
11th October 2017, 17:32
Can’t fall back on race when explaining the hate for Schumacher, Alonso, and Vettel, can they?
Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
11th October 2017, 18:27
Yes often the same thing, we don’t like the German enemy or the fiery Spanish arrogance. We always love those calm Finns though @mbr-9
We have a mould and if you don’t fit it you’re unpopular
(Can I just add this is a tongue in cheek comment and not how I personally feel at all lol)
Michael Brown (@)
11th October 2017, 17:26
@kbdavies “Hidden subliminal and unconscious racism.” Are you a mind reader? In fact, the racism that exists today comes largely from people like you who bring race into conversations that have nothing to do with race and by using stereotypes as proof.
11th October 2017, 18:12
No, it comes largely from people like you who pretend it doesn’t exist.
Michael Brown (@)
11th October 2017, 20:07
I didn’t realize that judging people on their actions instead of their race is racism.
I never denied racism exists but go ahead and put words in my mouth, please.
F Truth (@)
12th October 2017, 9:35
And people who pretend it doesn’t exist are almost always white, so who are you to insist something we experience day in day out in insidious ways doesn’t exist?
It’s because of people insisting it doesn’t exist that we have a right wing nutcase in the oval office putting millions of lives worldwide at risk.
Nikhil Patel (@tiya)
11th October 2017, 18:22
And sometimes people are just being racist. It happens. Hamilton can move on.
11th October 2017, 22:25
@mbr-9 I largely agree with that. It isn’t always the case, but as somebody who sometimes criticises Hamilton amongst other drivers, I feel personally insulted that anybody might attribute my comments to racism. I always justify what I have to say with facts or opinions about his driving or actions. His race never occurred to me until it was brought up on here. I recall this was brought up (by the same person?) a while ago too. I am quite disgusted at the number of people who have just accused others of being racist.
All highly successful people, in sport, business, or anything, get an audience of love and of hate, as was correctly said above. Hamilton is no exception
@robbie you make a very good comment
11th October 2017, 23:27
What kind of ridiculous comment is this? Whilst you may delude yourself into believing this, it doesn’t fool anyone. How can you claim that the racial identity of someone you can see, has never occurred to you? What level of duplicity does it take to utter such a statement?
It is like seeing a black Ferrari, but claim all you saw was a Ferrari, and it never occurred to you that it was black.
Of course, you can claim his race was never a CONSIDERATION in your criticism. That is a different thing entirely. However, your initial comment just sounds silly.
11th October 2017, 23:39
@strontium Well said and thank you.
F Truth (@)
12th October 2017, 9:45
@strontium don’t get it twisted. Noone is saying EVERY person who raises ANY objection to Lewis is racist, what @kbdavies is referring to is the repeated objection to his lifestyle, dress sense and the rest which if you go on a Twitter post by Scuderia Ferrari or last year Nico Rosberg is inundated by comments which you cannot attribute to anything other than a distain for black culture.
If anything, the comments section on F1F is largely free of such individuals but F1F does not represent the overall casual F1 fanbase, not by a mile and @kbdavies comment is in reference to that.
12th October 2017, 16:45
Nobody who goes to races has a problem with Lewis. The racism thing is typical internet specualtion from borderline trolls.
13th October 2017, 6:41
@kbdavies, yep, I feel sad about this kind of thing, but it does seem that his “being different”, i.e. being black is at the root of a lot of the critisizm.
I do cringe sometimes when he complains – I think he last did that when Rosberg was winning, although there were one or two times this year where he almost got there again before the summer (not a fan of his reasoning for going vegan either, but not a big issue) – but every time I see him interacting with fans, with an audience, doing a more casual interview (nice one with Serena) or just at a festival enjoying things, he just comes over as a thoroughly nice, polite, bright and happy guy.
Sure, we can all be evious of how good he is in a car, and how rich and popular he has become. But compared to many other rich people in this world, he has earned it and carries himself well enough.
11th October 2017, 1:29
Regarding the new engines i hope they don’t equalize the engines. There is no point in having multiple manufactures if the engines are the same, the only way the engines should be the same if it is gained by development, not by force to satisfy a drinks team.
11th October 2017, 7:21
11th October 2017, 15:12
@ldg95 Agree, Nothing in F1 should ever be equalized.
If a team or manufacturer finds something that gives them an advantage then it should be left upto the rest to catch up & if they can’t then tough.
If you want equality then go watch one of the many spec series.
11th October 2017, 17:13
Would that be McLaren Milk or Honda Hooch?
11th October 2017, 1:43
Keep the engines as is, but dump the fuel flow restrictions so less efficient engines can flow more to make up for the deficit. Simple.
11th October 2017, 2:06
This is a sensible suggestion, someone needs to listen to this. It’s interesting because there is a price to pay in weight and volume of the extra fuel for the teams who can’t make a more efficient PU. If they can use the extra fuel to generate more power it’s an interesting trade-off.
11th October 2017, 3:35
Very good points, John & thedolphins
11th October 2017, 5:59
I’m not sure I agree.
Mercedes have made a power unit capable of over 50% thermal efficiency. This is absolutely unheard of and makes their car now efficient than an electric car (looking at a normal countries electricity generation and delivery systems).
The reason they have done that is that it was the only way to increase power, which is what they really want. For a set fuel flow, increasing power is only possible by increasing fuel efficiency. We would not have seen this revolutionary development without the fuel flow limit.
Now, when it comes to the new regs we have a conundrum. There are many competing demands which need to be balanced. Personally, I hate the idea of making it a step back from the current amazing technology, but I also understand the need for cost controls and encouraging new entrants (with the possibility of being competitive). I don’t know how to solve it, but I expect a backwards step :( and a simplified engine, maybe eliminating the MGU-H. This would be interesting from a spectator’s view, with turbo lag back making the car now difficult to drive, but it would be sad to see from an engineering perspective.
11th October 2017, 8:58
Disagree. Keeping the fuel flow rates variable will see teams use pace in spurts and fuel management for most of the race. It will somehow get back to fuel saving racing, which was absolutely horrible for the sport.
11th October 2017, 17:24
The AMG Project One F1 road car has virtually all the gubbins of an F1 drive train with a lower rev limit and a 2.4m€ price. Even allowing 2m€ for the drive train, 4 engines ( a seasons worth) would cost 8m€. Make 2m€ the fixed selling price for all makers.
Costs would tumble immediately.
12th October 2017, 2:22
No, Fuel Flow restrictions have nothing to do with anything.
Its is just assumed that reduced fuel flow somehow limits the performance of the car and makes it less interesting.
How many lap records have been broken this year?
Regardless of fuel flow, the teams will only carry they amount of fuel that will get them to the end of the race as fast as possible. Even if they doubled the fuel flow limits it just means they have to carry more fuel, they cannot physically burn more fuel at a faster rate without carrying more.
More fuel adds weight and slows the car down and increases tyre wear, and you end up taking longer to get the end,
Ok they may be able to use the extra fuel to boost performance for short periods, but they will have to compensate later.
Like it or not the vast majority of motor racing involves some form of fuel saving due that balance over weight and performance.
As drmouse (@drmouse) mentions the performance is gained through efficiency not burning more fuel. Ironically being more efficient uses less fuel for the same power output as you don’t need to use higher fuel flow rates which reduces the amount they need to carry for the race resulting in an even faster car.
11th October 2017, 4:29
Are we going to get the last two races prediction points any time soon? We are 2 races behind and I’d love to know where I lay. Also on the new PU I hope it’s a step in the right direction but I hold little hope of smart moves with the FIA
11th October 2017, 13:23
You got 9 pts for Suzuka. I downloaded the table to check as I thought I’d done well this week … but had BOT & RAI in the wrong positions :-(
11th October 2017, 18:07
7 pts Malaysia, you’ve gained 2 pts on abcmarco …. but lost a place to @omarr-pepper so are down to third.
Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
11th October 2017, 7:54
I think Massa uses the blue flag rules to his advantage without breaking the rules which is a smart thing to do. He tries to loose as little time as possible, but never holds drivers up for long enough to get a penalty. I think he knows what he is allowed to do and personally, I thin it is good thing to do if he doesn’t want to affect his own race as much. Just because of this doesn’t mean he should retire. In that case, Alonso certainly shoud retire as he clearly did do something wrong as he got a penalty. But I don’t think this. At the moment, I just think blue flags affect drivers at the back too much. They are still often fighting for championship points which with some drivers are more likely to change their position in the championship much more than Hamilton. Just think if Hamilton had a problem and then was lapped. Should he then back off every time he gets a blue flag? It often is the case that lapped drivers can sometimes be quicker than the leaders if they have just pitted and it would be a total waste of the lapped drivers time if they had to pull over at this point. I remember this happening with Haryanto in Spain 2016. He had just pitted and was about to be lapped. But he was getting blue flags and was pulling away from the leaders. Even though his gap was increasing over several laps, he was still getting blue flags. So he had to pull over and ruining his race against the drivers at the back of the feild. If this is when these teams are fighting for points and that is a rare thing, then these blue flag rules often affect these teams much more than the leading drivers in top teams. I often wish these rules would be reconsidered.
11th October 2017, 10:07
@thegianthogweed, If they are actually faster, then backmarkers can unlap themselves though.
That’s what Kubica did in that infamous 2008 Brazil race after he ended up a lap down due to a pit stop. At some point he felt the need to barge past Hamilton. Shoving Hamilton off the racing line and causing him to also lose a place to Vettel. Effectively costing Hamilton the championship for a few laps.
11th October 2017, 13:36
Sorry, but no. Just no. Kubica had completed the pass before the corner, there was nothing stopping Hamilton from taking the racing line, he simply outdrove himself. Calling that ‘shoving’ is just way off.
Oh, and I would never have thought that the 2008 Brazilian GP would be called ‘infamous’ by anyone, ever. You live and learn, I guess.
11th October 2017, 15:52
Clearly yes. If anything havign to duck out of the way and coping with a huge loss of downforce in the wake of another car is what made him slide off.
11th October 2017, 16:02
@patrickl Well, my hopes weren’t high, but I was definitely not expecting a completely new explanation/excuse.
11th October 2017, 9:43
First time I think I’ve ever agreed with Helmut Marko. Bye bye Massa, time to go. (Although I think that time was when you left Ferrari, possibly even a bit sooner).
11th October 2017, 10:11
@tonyyeb, Massa did nothing wrong though. Alonso did. Alonso held up Hamilton for almost a whole lap, which is what cost Hamilton his lead over Verstappen. Alonso got a penalty for this and rightly so.
So the only reason that Verstappen was in reach of Hamilton all of a sudden was BECAUSE of a backmarker. How Marko can then go on to complain that it was a backmarker that cost Verstappen the win is beyond me.
Perhaps it’s Marko who should consider retiring if he has such a lack of insight in what actually goes on during the race.
11th October 2017, 10:16
@patrickl I wasn’t referring to the blue flags incident in Suzuka. I just meant the sentiment that Massa retires. I have no issue with how quickly he let people through or got between the leaders etc. He is far from his best with many better drivers deserving of a chance. Even Lance Stroll is looking good in comparison to him…. LANCE STROLL! Lol!