Vergne open to future F1-Formula E merger

45 comments on “Vergne open to future F1-Formula E merger”

1. 

   Doran
   2nd January 2019, 0:32

   Given how quickly Formula e has grown, I think it’s inevitable that it will surpass F1 eventually, honestly a merge in my opinion is the only thing that would save F1 from completely vanishing, although the new sport would likely take the F1 name
   1. 

      Iosif (@afonic)
      2nd January 2019, 8:00

      How do you measure that growth exactly? Because from the numbers I’ve seen Formula E has 2% of the market F1 has, and I guess even that 2% includes a good amount of F1 watchers.
   2. 

      Jason Blankenship (@jblank)
      2nd January 2019, 13:30

      Dream on, Doran. Auto racing has always been about gasoline powered cars. When that goes away, fans all over the world will go away because to us, it’s not really racing.
      1. 

         Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
         3rd January 2019, 1:08

         @jblank Speak for yourself. I don’t care how the cars are powered. I just want them to be powerful and fast, with good racing to boot.
         1. 

            Jason Blankenship (@jblank)
            3rd January 2019, 18:34

            Well then ignore Formula E because fast isn’t in their formula. In any case, I’m correct, the numbers support me and once ICE racing goes away, the fans will too. If I want to watch gimmick racing I’ll watch drones or something.
   3. 

      John Toad (@)
      2nd January 2019, 17:36

      Depends what you mean by ‘surpass’ I guess.
      Formula E has a long way to go to catch up with F1 lap speeds.
      Formula E has yet to race on a full length F1 track.
      Formula E has yet to have a ‘real’ F1 driver.
      Still has a long way to go to ‘surpass’ F1.
   4. 

      Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
      2nd January 2019, 20:03

      I don’t see why F1 couldn’t be one of the most popular sports on TV and computer, except for the fact they put the races behind a paywall.
   5. 

      Mark Thomson (@melthom)
      4th January 2019, 21:03

      Silent cars removes an important part of what makes a race dramatic. The high sound level enhance the experience of extraordinary speed. For example during acceleration at the start. Remove it and you have an anti-climax with extremely boring racing. Artificial sound would be just ridiculous.
2. 

   Big Joe
   2nd January 2019, 1:20

   Once all the big and corrupt car makers have moved over to FE, then F1 can go back to how it used to be. Mercedes are only Tyrrell and Ilmor with several eras of big corporate money thrown at it.
   1. 

      koddamn (@gufdamm)
      2nd January 2019, 17:13

      Lol. Like the iPhone XS is just Steve Jobs first iPhone with lots of money thrown at it?
      1. 

         anon
         2nd January 2019, 18:41

         @gufdamm, I expect that this is a matter of ideology over facts for Big Joe – as an aside, there is of course a supreme irony in his decision to laud Tyrrell given that Tyrrell were only able to enter Formula 1 in the first place because they were being backed by one of those “corrupt car makers” that he hates (Matra in that instance).
3. 

   gtfhjk (@amaga1)
   2nd January 2019, 1:23

   I love people who predict the future. They always end up being wrong.
   1. 

      Gabriel (@rethla)
      2nd January 2019, 14:34

      Is that a prediction?
      1. 

         Shimks (@shimks)
         3rd January 2019, 15:58

         Notice: This month’s meeting of the Clairvoyants Society has been cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances.
4. 

   MtlRacer (@mtlracer)
   2nd January 2019, 2:59

   Why would petrol-engine racing ever disappear completely? There’s still horse racing all over the world, isn’t there? It’s a good thing the RoboRace hasn’t taken off because then some could say drivers are no longer needed.
   Once FE can cover 300km in under 90 minutes with fat sticky tyres, then we can make valid comparisons to F1… until then, I wish everyone would just stop comparing them.
   1. 

      Fikri Harish (@)
      2nd January 2019, 3:25

      Perhaps not completely but there’s just no way professional petrol-engine racing is still going to exist once alternative fuel became the norm.
      Horse breeding is nowhere near as costly as ICE development and maintenance and horses can literally breed indefinitely, not to mention the fact that horse breeding doesn’t really require an engineering background. No company is going to pour money and resource into something that’s going the way of the dodo.

      If anything, I assume that petrol cars are going to be raced exclusively in events like Goodwood Revival and the like.
      1. 

         Paul Heppler (@paulheppler)
         2nd January 2019, 4:06

         Just to enhance your point(s).
         We still have human sprint and endurance racing, from the Greeks.
         We still have human powered sprint and endurance racing on the water.
         It started in the air with a balloon, then across the Atlantic, against the trade winds.
         Human nature is to strive to better than the other that’s trying to be better me.
         We can not be the best at “everything”, we know that.
         Therefor, logic predicts that merging specialties only compromises the elite.
         So NASCAR / F1 / IndyCar / FE / LeMans / Americas Cup / Iditarod , et al, should not interbreed.
         Each is in a class of it’s own … Keep it that way.
         To risk an intentioned bad pun from the “Bard”, “shoe maker, stick to thy last”.
      2. 

         Gerrit
         2nd January 2019, 4:34

         Many forms of motorsport use ICE that are not from car manufacturers designs.

         Think NHRA, Sprint Cars, Indycars, even F1 etc.

         Years gone by the Coventry Climax engine was originally designed and built as a motive power for a stationary fire pumps before being press ganged into life as a race car engine. The Repco Brabham engine that won two world championships (1966 and 1967) was not based on a car manufacturers engine.

         The ICE used in Indycars are not derived from car manufacturers engines. Literally made from billet and badged to whoever stump up with the cash.

         Even Cosworth will build you an engine.

         Engineering wise they are a piece of cake to manufacture. Once the design is made, it is infinitely reproduceable, just like horses.

         If we really start to think outside the ICE box, a gas turbine engine can and has powered race winners. (Look up Howmet TX Sport Car).

         These are easy to manufacture, can run on vegetable generated methanes and produce gops of power.

         The Lotus 56 ended up being outlawed as it was just to fast.

         “The real setback for the Type 56 wasn’t mechanical troubles, it was regulation. Even before it entered competition, the U.S. Auto Club demanded that turbine engines reduce their air intake by 35 percent, to make them more competitive with piston-powered cars. Soon after the 1968 Indy 500, the organization banned the engine altogether. That’s too bad: In 1974, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists wrote, “the apparent demise of the turbine engine is a technological tragedy, for of all the ways yet devised to power an automobile, it is very likely the best.” And while “the racing world banned the turbine engine; the automotive industry ignored it to death.”

         https://www.wired.com/2014/10/lotus-turbine-racecar/

         To write of ICE engines is plain silly, they are easy to build, have unlimited amount of fuel available to run them and make way, way, way better race engines than the electric engined and tire squealing FE cars.
         1. 

            JohnH (@johnrkh)
            2nd January 2019, 5:07

            The Repco Brabham engine that won two world championships (1966 and 1967) was not based on a car manufacturers engine.

            Gerrit I’m petty sure the engine was based on a GM design, Oldsmobile I think. Heavily modified but the basic block was a mass production unit.
            1. 

               Jimmi Cynic (@jimmi-cynic)
               2nd January 2019, 5:28

               No worries for future F1 ICE engines – high-revving, fire-breathing monsters will be 3D printed from recycled lithium-ion cells by Garagistas in Middlesex.
            2. 

               erikje
               2nd January 2019, 16:53

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repco#Repco_V8_engine
            3. 

               anon
               2nd January 2019, 19:49

               @johnrkh, yes, you are correct – the Repco 620 engine machined down standard F85 Oldsmobile engines that were bought directly from General Motors – they also used pieces from other manufacturers as well (cam buckets from Alfa Romeo and connecting rods from Daimer and Chevrolet, for example), so the engine relied pretty heavily on automotive manufacturers.

               @rethla, well, in the case of a gas turbine directly driving the wheels, there is a reason why the “automotive industry ignored gas turbines to death” – it is the fact that they actually make pretty terrible engines for road cars, and indeed generally performed fairly terribly in racing cars as well.

               It is worth noting that none of the drivers who actually drove the Lotus 56 liked it all that much – Graham Hill frequently complained to Chapman about the fact that the engine had terrible throttle response – whilst all of them actively hated the 56B variant that raced in F1.

               John Miles was lucky not to be killed when testing the car, Dave Walker was actively relieved when he crashed because the car was a nightmare to drive and Emerson Fittipaldi described the car as the worst and most dangerous car that he ever drove – again, the throttle response was so atrocious as to be non-existent.

               The example of the Howmet TX is also not great – yes, the car did win a few races, but those races were held against extremely weak fields which had no other GTP cars (one of those races only had two other entries, and they were both GT cars), so those victories don’t say much.

               It’s worth noting that, in later life, Ray Heppenstall admitted that the Howmet TX was actually illegal for the class it raced in. Using the equivalency formulas of the time, the Howmet TX’s engine actually equated to a 3.3 litre conventional engine – the ACCUS official who was meant to calculate what the turbine equated to as a piston engine deliberately falsified the calculations so it could run in the 3.0 litre prototype class instead.
            4. 

               Gerrit
               2nd January 2019, 19:55

               Correct. Worth a read in how much of the original alloy block remained. Note that with cnc machining engine blocks are now easily produced, not like in 1965 when that technology was not available and independent engine block casting cost prohibitive. Though Repco did in the end cast their own engine blocks.

               Worth a read

               https://primotipo.com/2014/08/07/rb620-v8-building-the-1966-world-championship-winning-engine-rodways-repco-recollections-episode-2/

               “A lot of people in 1966, including the international motoring writers did not realize the extent of the machining of the F85 Oldsmobile cylinder block to use as our engine base. It was more work and more involved in adapting the F85 than machining our new Repco cast blocks (700 and 800 Series) used later in the project.”
         2. 

            Gabriel (@rethla)
            2nd January 2019, 14:47

            The “automotive industry that ignored gas turbines to death” seems to be crawling with gas turbines, they are just called turbos…
            1. 

               Gerrit
               2nd January 2019, 19:47

               Not correct. Turbine engines are connected to the drive train directly from its main shaft.

               Turbos are a fancy form of compressor that intensifies the air fuel mixture for the ICE and is spun from the exhaust gases. Turbos have no internal combustion mechanism. The turbo has no output shaft to drive the car.
            2. 

               Gabriel (@rethla)
               2nd January 2019, 22:12

               And you dont think turbine engines are fancy compressors?
               The ICE is the internal combustion…
         3. 

            Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
            3rd January 2019, 1:14

            @Gerrit,

            Once the design is made, it is infinitely reproduceable, just like horses.

            I don’t think you understand what “infinite” means. Even if the fuel source is renewable (e.g. sourced from food crops), the steel required to build them is absolutely finite.

            So not “just like horses”.
            1. 

               Gabriel (@rethla)
               3rd January 2019, 1:28

               @justrhysism
               And horses just magicly spawn i presume? ;)
               In a world where metal for engines is finite horses definitly are aswell.
            2. 

               Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
               3rd January 2019, 13:06

               @rethla Horses are created using renewable resources (food, water, other horses). Engines are not.

               I’m actually rather surprised I had to explain that.
            3. 

               Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
               3rd January 2019, 13:08

               @rethla

               In a world where metal for engines is finite

               What other world is there? Metal is finite. Food and water is renewable.
            4. 

               Gabriel (@rethla)
               3rd January 2019, 13:53

               @justrhysism
               There is one world and metal, carbon(that horses are made of), “food” and water are all finite if you wanna stretch it to the limits. Food for breeding horses and metal to make engines aint exactly running out right now and thats the context im basing my view on ;)
            5. 

               Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
               3rd January 2019, 22:18

               @rethla

               “food” and water are all finite if you wanna stretch it to the limits.

               I didn’t say they weren’t finite, but they are renewable. Metal is recyclable, but is significantly more difficult to do so. But either way, you’ve actually made my point for me, given you initially said that “it is infinitely reproduceable [sic]“.

               metal to make engines aint exactly running out right now and thats the context im basing my view on

               Still not “infinite”. I hope you don’t make important decisions on false facts.
            6. 

               Gabriel (@rethla)
               4th January 2019, 1:48

               @justrhysism
               Im not gonna buy a horse instead of a car because metal is “finite” if thats what you mean ;)
      3. 

         Xcm
         2nd January 2019, 19:35

         ASSume is the right word for it.
5. 

   ColdFly (@)
   2nd January 2019, 7:45

   I predict that both ICE F1 and electric FE will become obsolete as soon as we’ve mastered time travel ;)
   1. 

      Jere (@jerejj)
      2nd January 2019, 11:49

      @coldfly That is, of course, if time travelling ever were to become possible.
6. 

   Abe (@okeptl)
   2nd January 2019, 9:11

   I don’t think ICE powered racing will disappear in the future, it reminds me of the quartz crisis. When quartz watches were invented (more reliable, more accurate, cheaper), mechanical watchmaking was dying. That was 40 years ago, but now there is still a place for mechanical watches.

   In this case all car manufacturers have a lot of time to adapt and develop their products. Carmakers can race in FE and possibly roborace to promote EV and mobility. It is becoming likelier to see car manufacturers leaving F1 and focusing on FE, on the benefits of cost and a more level playing field; but there is no case that requires F1 to merge with FE as they both have an opposing vision and mission.

   As boring as the race goes, F1 still markets itself as the best that motorsport can offer. It is a racing event where teams and drivers goes all out the whole weekend. FE on the other hand is more about the show, even if the races can be very exciting. It’s about racing a semi-spec EV cars in the middle of a city, and invites interaction with the audience with its Fanboost.

   I hope there is a place for FE and F1 to coexist. Personally i find that F1 and FE gives a different kind of excitement, and i really like that the FE season starts after the F1 season ended so that I won’t get bored easily during the off season. Thank goodness Marrakesh ePrix is only 10 days away, and it is available on youtube
7. 

   Thomas Bennett (@felipemassadobrasil)
   2nd January 2019, 9:31

   Goodness, where have they dug Burti up from?
8. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   2nd January 2019, 11:56

   2030 is forever from now, though.

   I disagree with Burti. Yes, it indeed isn’t normal for a quadruple world champion to make that many mistakes and especially that many rather ‘silly’ unforced errors, but avoiding those is his responsibility, not the responsibility of the team management.

   An interesting COTD and I agree with it for the most part. Hopefully, the Renault/Nissan-situation wouldn’t prove costly for the manufacturer’s F1 program, though.
9. 

   jamesluke2488
   2nd January 2019, 13:29

   Formula E is simply a testing ground for engine manufacturers. The extra money and growth is due to the investment of big car companies looking to develop battery/ power train technology.

   If you look at all the most attended events in the world F1/ Indy 500/ Le Mans 24 Hours/ WRC etc. They all have history based on the that type of motor sport. Formula E is in direct competition with Formula 1 a already established competition. of that type of motor sport. For it to surpass F1 it needs to take fans off F1 in big numbers, any new open wheel fans will naturally follow F1 as this is the most popular sport in that category and people like to watch what everyone else is watching. For Formula E to succeed it needs to get people in big numbers to watch its sport over F1 then new open wheel fans will follow FE over F1. The only way in my mind for this to happen is for F1 to get it so wrong and either collapse or make the sport unwatchable. Otherwise it can simply adopt the technology development in Formula E when necessary and continue as the biggest open wheel sport.
10. 

    Neil (@neilosjames)
    2nd January 2019, 14:54

    At the moment, an F1/FE merged would be like merging the Renault Clio Cup with NASCAR. ‘They both have four wheels and a roof, so hey, why not?’

    Much as Formula E likes to talk itself up, it currently occupies a small niche in the motorsport world and survives largely on marketing. The tracks are a joke, the cars look slow even on enclosed circuits, the technology has lost its ‘wow factor’ and the quality of the racing isn’t particularly good. I like that it races in cities, but it can only do that because the cars are so slow. The only two things it really has going for it are manufacturer involvement (though reliance on manufacturers isn’t necessarily a good thing) and a high-quality driver field.

    In the future? Maybe a merger could happen, but FE would probably need to give up its unique selling point (electric cars in big cities) to become relevant enough to be an ‘equal partner’ in a merger. It’d need to evolve into a (popular) series with quick electric cars, and that means they’d have to ditch the crap little Mickey Mouse tracks and use real circuits. Quicker will most likely mean more expensive, advanced technology, and leaving cities will mean they have to be able to attract fans out to real tracks to watch the racing.

    Only, I get the feeling that by the time (if it ever comes – doubtful) they get to the point of being able to do that, someone else will already be doing the Silent 24 Hours of Le Mans and FE won’t have a niche to evolve into…

    But we’re all crap at predicting the future, so perhaps I’ll be paying SkyLiberDisney £500 a month in 2035 to watch the first Formula On-E world championship…
11. 

    Cristiano Ferreira
    2nd January 2019, 14:55

    No one wants a merge with a pathetic excuse of a motor Racing series like Formula E. Only FE pilots who doesnt have a chance in F1 can hope and dream with it.
12. 

    BlackJackFan
    3rd January 2019, 4:44

    Re RenaultNissan: The news I’ve seen suggests it is Nissan who are deeply unimpressed with their Big Boss… whereas Renault seem to be happy as they are. Between the lines it seems this affair is being used as a political means for the two companies to split – or at least diverge.
13. 

    Balue (@balue)
    3rd January 2019, 16:58

    Haas has done very well with their drivers. Not the top crop, but Magnussen has really blossomed and Grosjean has been allowed to find his way, even if it’s taken a lot of time. Other teams would have be looking at new talents, but even new promising talent would likely not do as well points-wise as seasoned drivers who have been through ‘F1 school’ who is given trust and time, and who know they will likely not be thrown out for the latest ‘Idol’ winner.
    1. 

       BlackJackFan
       4th January 2019, 17:05

       Balue – great icon.

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